Chinese clones of Chinese brands

[Hackenslash]

Atech, You seem to have the impression that for some reason you have any more credibility than anyone else here. Purple has a history of a live-and-let-live when it comes to this stuff. Everyone else is wrapping a fresh set of torches and sharpening the pitchforks. Peaceant can try to justify his purchases however lets him sleep at night, the fact that the EU doesn't much have time for clones (saw lots of brick and mortar stores in germany with with fake sebbies on the shelf) doesn't much matter. The thing is, I know the song they are going to sing, don't much care for it, but agree to disagree as it where since at least one of them is amusing from time to time. But if that is the only agenda you have to push, then you might as well keep walking. Clones hurt everyone. They hurt spyderco when fakes end up in retail stores, hurt Falkniven when their entry level knife gets cloned and is garbage, they hurt smaller OEMs like Rowen for the same reason. They also hurt designers who can't fairly profit from their work, and they make it harder for those folks to make a living. They also dilute the market for the smaller makers. Sure we know what a custom maker is capable of, but clones and "handmade" knives take away that credibility, so everyone assumes that the small makers are taking the easy route.

Now that said, you will find a lot of interest here for value knives, so if you were to use your knowledge to point people in the direction of makers who are honest, and explain the link between designer, manufacturer, exporter and marketer, then there is value there. I'm sure there is a lot of value to be found in China and by and large you will find that anyone who makes blanket statements about any country producing poor work better have his fire-proof shorts on because the flames will come. But the moment you say that anyone can justify a copy or clone, you are just a shill. Also, flush the free speech stuff, this is Spark's house, we are here at his leisure. Truth is valued yes, but don't get caught by thinking you can say whatever you want with regards to opinions. Lastly, this is the internet, you connect the dots, we'll follow them, you are only worth your words, and many have been toasted before you because their true colors got found out. You do you, but we like people of single face, yeah?

THIS! Well spoken and well said. I won't even try to say more on these subjects.

AtechReviews, I've looked at your site and continue to do so from time to time. I like it as a source for new, ORIGINAL knife designs from all over the world. I like your review style where you clearly seek out pros and cons of every knife you cover. Unfortunately, I find your acceptance and endorsement of clones to be incredibly short sighted. It cancels out logical reviews in a flash. Spend some time talking to entry level designers and manufacturers and you'll hear how much clones have hurt their business.

I hear so many convoluted justifications to explain away the acceptance of clones but they never address the most damning charge against them; stealing is wrong. We all, supposedly, learned that in kindergarten or Sunday school. I've never yet heard one defense of clones that explained that simple fact away.

If we depend only on hard and fast laws to define the standards of our lives, we'll all be in a pretty sorry state. Although clones don't violate any written law, they should always violate the unwritten ones inside of us.

 

[ThePeacent]

Atech, You seem to have the impression that for some reason you have any more credibility than anyone else here. Purple has a history of a live-and-let-live when it comes to this stuff. Everyone else is wrapping a fresh set of torches and sharpening the pitchforks. Peaceant can try to justify his purchases however lets him sleep at night, the fact that the EU doesn't much have time for clones (saw lots of brick and mortar stores in germany with with fake sebbies on the shelf) doesn't much matter. The thing is, I know the song they are going to sing, don't much care for it, but agree to disagree as it where since at least one of them is amusing from time to time. But if that is the only agenda you have to push, then you might as well keep walking. Clones hurt everyone. They hurt spyderco when fakes end up in retail stores, hurt Falkniven when their entry level knife gets cloned and is garbage, they hurt smaller OEMs like Rowen for the same reason. They also hurt designers who can't fairly profit from their work, and they make it harder for those folks to make a living. They also dilute the market for the smaller makers. Sure we know what a custom maker is capable of, but clones and "handmade" knives take away that credibility, so everyone assumes that the small makers are taking the easy route.

Now that said, you will find a lot of interest here for value knives, so if you were to use your knowledge to point people in the direction of makers who are honest, and explain the link between designer, manufacturer, exporter and marketer, then there is value there. I'm sure there is a lot of value to be found in China and by and large you will find that anyone who makes blanket statements about any country producing poor work better have his fire-proof shorts on because the flames will come. But the moment you say that anyone can justify a copy or clone, you are just a shill. Also, flush the free speech stuff, this is Spark's house, we are here at his leisure. Truth is valued yes, but don't get caught by thinking you can say whatever you want with regards to opinions. Lastly, this is the internet, you connect the dots, we'll follow them, you are only worth your words, and many have been toasted before you because their true colors got found out. You do you, but we like people of single face, yeah?

I didn't really understand the bolded paragraph, either because I have very basic English level and skills or because it is badly written. But I have genuine interest in understanding what it means, really

 

[marcinek]

I believe correct info and free speech (within the objective rules) should be the cornerstones of any forum and above other people's preferences, prejudices and biases, otherwise it will turn to a dark one with communist values, such as censorship.

Good example of a place like this is the Shirogorov owners club, in which you can't say or show anything bad about the Shirogorov knives or you will be expelled and banned from the club.

I believe in free speech also.

But I understand that we are all guests of the site's owner who is trying to maintain a community of knife fans here, and, ultimately, what he says goes. You, I, and everyone else here has no "right" to free speech here, just as our local newspaper is in no way Constitutionally obliged to print our letter to the editor.

If you want to print fliers about these knives and hand them out on the corner, no one can stop you.

That said, forget about IP theft and the rules of the site for the moment.

What you have come here and said is "I, for whatever reason, am not going to buy a real Delica. But what I will buy is something that is purpose-built to look as much like the Delica as possible."

And that "something" is a ripoff. There's really no way around that. And whether its illegal or immoral, I'll let the other folks debate.

But what I cannot understand is how someone who claims to appreciate knives could do that. Particularly when:

1) there are plenty of quality, budget-priced knives that aren't purpose-built to rip off someone else's designs. Get an Opinel, Douk Douk, Mercator, etc etc etc., and;

2) the guy who came up with the Delica? His name is Sal, and he's one of the members here, and a nice guy who will talk to just about anybody who like knives. Since you seem to feel you are on such solid moral ground, you should chat with him.

I find your stand on this whole thing here on BF inexplicable, and, honestly, distasteful.

 

[PURPLEDC]

I hear so many convoluted justifications to explain away the acceptance of clones but they never address the most damning charge against them; stealing is wrong. We all, supposedly, learned that in kindergarten or Sunday school. I've never yet heard one defense of clones that explained that simple fact away.

.

I only have one hang up with the "stealing is wrong" statement. And that is there is no law currently in place that says copying a design is actually stealing and thus wrong. Patents and trademarks sure, don't touch that stuff. But there are many instances where virtual cloning of products is not only tolerated but is actually commonplace. One close cousin to knives is the gun market. But in guns there doesn't seem to be as much disdain for replicas or clones. Sure a Canik TP9 might not be revered like the gun it copies but I don't see any forums banning the discussion of guns that closely resemble another makers model. So It leaves me to question if closely replicating a design is considered stealing. And the majority of people think it is wrong then why do we not have laws and protection for the looks of an item? There are design patents but it seems they are hard to enforce and have very limited protection. But you really do see it with many many products. Copying others is what fuels a competitive market. Many times companies trying to one up each other by making small improvements. Copying is so commonplace in general merch that it almost seems like people are completely numb to it. In fact the only time I really see anyone taking any sort of position on this is when its a hobby they hold dear.

Now I know that is logical as peoples hobbies are where there passions and opinions are voiced most. But to me, it just seems weird. Like if you are a guy right now sitting at home reading this post disgusted with me because you cant believe I don't have a hard lined stance against cloning but you are reading it on a Samsung device that closely resembles an IPhone and you glance down to look at the time and you are wearing an invicta watch that from 3ft away looks like a rolex or have a wife that has a handbag that looks like a coach but isn't I get a little confused by that. Because to me that is people taking up a cause only because it is convenient for them. To ignore cloning in every facet of their life but the one area that probably amounts the least money spent. Or at least should be the least amount of money spent. To me it seems like that person couldn't really care less about clones. They just found an opportunity in which to act as if it really bothers them. Kinda like the guy who wouldn't intervene in a situation where someone was being verbally abused but gal dang it when they get home they are going to let the whole world of their 342 facebook friends know how they feel about it.

 

[Mo2]

you dont need a law to say stealing is wrong. create something in your own likeness not someone elses.

the only reason they are copying is for sales and marketing. if they didnt look like other brands no one would buy them. and the only reason people know about them is they sent those knives for free for review. and now adays you have people who buy them to review because they think its okay. but they should be reviewing affordable legit designs not copies. some folks are all about greed, or profits and dont care about copying. its wrong, yet they still do it. there is no law persay, but its not right.

does it make me money? yes, then its okay? no, do it anyways? yes? moral, ethical? no.

 

[AtechReviews]

Spend some time talking to entry level designers and manufacturers and you'll hear how much clones have hurt their business.

First of all, entry level designers and manufacturers rarely get cloned, they are more after the bigger names: CRK, Strider, ZT, Microtech, Shirogorov etc (all of these companies are doing great btw).
Second of all, I did. Can't say they were all particularly happy about a clone being made of their design, but not even one of them said they were hurt because of that.
Some were even surprisingly cool about it, saying "That's just the sign I've made it".
I think more makers were hurt by giving bad customer service (or just not supplying the order) or just by making bad quality or F&F knives than the ones that were hurt by clones.

I'm sure there were no cases someone said to a knifemaker: "Hey man, cancel that order, I'm going to buy the clone instead".
On the other hand. I do know about cases when someone bought a clone and loved it so much they went and bought the genuine knife.
Or guys who were so afraid of buying a fake on the secondary market they got a new one from the maker/dealer instead.
So please tell me more about how clones hurt the knife making business.

What you have come here and said is "I, for whatever reason, am not going to buy a real Delica. But what I will buy is something that is purpose-built to look as much like the Delica as possible."

Not true, I didn't say that.
I never intended to buy the Delica in the first place. I got the Ganzo G759M for reviewing purposes, and it isn't even built to look as much like the Delica as possible, it resembles the Byrd Meadowlark 2 more.
Not a ripoff btw, as it doesn't copy any logo or trademark.

if they didnt look like other brands no one would buy them.

Wow, that's just on another level of wrong and could be easily disproved.
CKF, Reate, Rike, Maxace, hell, even CH Knives and Kevin John's original designs under the Venom brand sell nicely.

 

[PirateSeulb]

I could, and maybe should, right a nice long paper of sorts on clones the ups and downs and the difference between clones and counterfeits etc. I think it is a topic worthy of discussion but difficult to have a discussion on with out someone readying the ax or inciting the mob.

 

[marcinek]

Not true, I didn't say that.
I never intended to buy the Delica in the first place. I got the Ganzo G759M for reviewing purposes, and it isn't even built to look as much like the Delica as possible, it resembles the Byrd Meadowlark 2 more.
Not a ripoff btw, as it doesn't copy any logo or trademark.

No, you said about the Ganzo:

"I'll say it like this - I appreciate this knife very much, because it dominates the model is is a copy of and if I had to choose from it or the Byrd (even at the same price) I would choose the G759."

 

[PURPLEDC]

you dont need a law to say stealing is wrong. create something in your own likeness not someone elses.

the only reason they are copying is for sales and marketing. if they didnt look like other brands no one would buy them. and the only reason people know about them is they sent those knives for free for review. and now adays you have people who buy them to review because they think its okay. but they should be reviewing affordable legit designs not copies. some folks are all about greed, or profits and dont care about copying. its wrong, yet they still do it. there is no law persay, but its not right.

does it make me money? yes, then its okay? no, do it anyways? yes? moral, ethical? no.

If something is wrong because its just wrong then it shouldn't matter if its a knife, a gun, a watch or anything else. I just don't think people care about the issue itself but rather the specific application as it relates to knives. I have no proof, but I feel its almost impossible to buy consumer goods these days that didn't take heavy inspiration from another product. And I simply don't believe that the majority of people who condemn cloning knives are as diligent with all the other products they buy in making sure that it didn't copy someone elses idea first. Kinda like I cant go to a peta rally wearing a leather jacket because I care about dogs and not cows.

 

[Mo2]

Wow, that's just on another level of wrong and could be easily disproved.
CKF, Reate, Rike, Maxace, hell, even CH Knives and Kevin John's original designs under the Venom brand sell nicely.

i think your confused. i buy CKF, Reate, Rike, because they are originals and they are excellent quality and proven. they are not Clones or poorly made crap knives. if most of the clones were original design some of them may sell, but thats debatable. Alot of those clones if they had there own design would not sell.

 

[PURPLEDC]

I'm sure there were no cases someone said to a knifemaker: "Hey man, cancel that order, I'm going to buy the clone instead".
On the other hand. I do know about cases when someone bought a clone and loved it so much they went and bought the genuine knife.
Or guys who were so afraid of buying a fake on the secondary market they got a new one from the maker/dealer instead.
So please tell me more about how clones hurt the knife making business.


.

That's what I find interesting too. The blame that goes into clones hurting the hobby. Every seller in china I know of openly states that their knives are not originals. The most damage clones and counterfeits have on the industry is not the fact they were made in the first place. But because scummy consumers buy them with the intent to rip off others on ebay or the forums. But that isn't anyone in china doing that. That's your fellow neighbor ripping you off.

i think your confused. i buy CKF, Reate, Rike, because they are originals and they are excellent quality and proven. they are not Clones or poorly made crap knives. if most of the clones were original design some of them may sell, but thats debatable.

I think he got the impression that you were saying if the clone manufacturers made their own designs they wouldn't sell because they don't know how to design knives. I got that impression too because you said if they made their own thing it wouldn't sell. How do we know this? How do you know some manufactures dont make both clones and originals. Hell CKF supposedly owns the K. John name. And CKF actually was just a retail site selling counterfeits and clones before becoming CKF. They only cared about such things when THEY started getting ripped off. The thing I think you assume is that clones are always low quality. A knife isn't low quality just because the design was used without permission. And many legit brands got their start copying other people work. Hell most custom knifemakers got their start replicating loveless designs.

 

[Sergeua]

A clone enthusiast is one thing but a clone promoter is not welcome here.

Your youtube channel where you don't say a word is a blatant clone promotion.

Example case number 1. Your showing an ak47 CS clone and in comments are advising a user to go ahead and get one and pointing him to a place where to get it.
If there were no clone promoters like you he would probably save his money for the real guys out there. There's no if or buts or doubts about it. Your channel is even a clone of other clone promoters who do a better job at it. Nothing original about you. Its very clear to all here where you stand with your morals. Free speech privileges don't apply to you. You made an account here and jumped discussing clones right away. You are worthless and add no value to this community.

 

[trevitrace]

Booyah.

 

[AtechReviews]

No, you said about the Ganzo:

"I'll say it like this - I appreciate this knife very much, because it dominates the model is is a copy of and if I had to choose from it or the Byrd (even at the same price) I would choose the G759."

I stand behind those words - objectively speaking it is a better knife than the Byrd Meadowlark 2.

i think your confused. i buy CKF, Reate, Rike, because they are originals and they are excellent quality and proven.

No, you are confused bro. Cause guess what - all of those companies either made clones or had knives produced by folks who make clones at some point.

if most of the clones were original design some of them may sell, but thats debatable.

If most of the clones had original design, then they wouldn't be clones, would they?

 

[Hackenslash]

So please tell me more about how clones hurt the knife making business.

You should take up your denial of the damage of clones with Sal Glesser. He has some distinct opinions on this topic and is far more qualified to evaluate its effect than either of us. He's a member here. You'll probably have to post in the Spyderco sub-forum though.

If an overseas manufacturer copied the Chevrolet Corvette and sold it Stateside for a fraction of the price, would that be OK with you too? I'm just trying to get a grip on the stance of your moral compass...

Does this free pass on copying extend to all things? Hamburgers? Cell phones? Blu ray movies? Humans? If one is fine then they all should be fine, right?

If human cloning becomes totally OK I'm sooooo gonna get me a Brazilian underwear model...because I can't afford the real thing . It's only fair. I should be able to have anything I want, even if I can't afford the genuine item.

Wow...just realized. It's rampant entitlement that fuels cloning.

I'd drop the mic but I think it might be a clone and could break...

 

[PURPLEDC]

i think your confused. i buy CKF, Reate, Rike, because they are originals and they are excellent quality and proven. they are not Clones or poorly made crap knives. if most of the clones were original design some of them may sell, but thats debatable.

You should take up your denial of the damage of clones with Sal Glesser. He has some distinct opinions on this topic and is far more qualified to evaluate its effect than either of us. He's a member here. You'll probably have to post in the Spyderco sub-forum though.

If an overseas manufacturer copied the Chevrolet Corvette and sold it Stateside for a fraction of the price, would that be OK with you too? I'm just trying to get a grip on the stance of your moral compass...

Does this free pass on copying extend to all things? Hamburgers? Cell phones? Blu ray movies? Humans? If one is fine then they all should be fine, right?

If human cloning becomes totally OK I'm sooooo gonna get me a Brazilian underwear model...because I can't afford the real thing . It's only fair. I should be able to have anything I want, even if I can't afford the genuine item.

Wow...just realized. It's rampant entitlement that fuels cloning.

I'd drop the mic but I think it might be a clone and could break...

umm, if brazillian underwear models were being cloned and sold id buy three of them. If they were within my budget. If not i would wait for them to be cloned in china. Then i would buy six.

 

[Hackenslash]

umm, if brazillian underwear models were being cloned and sold id buy three of them. If they were within my budget. If not i would wait for them to be cloned in china. Then i would buy six.

I'd have to clear it with my wife first...

 

[palonej]

Yup!! Sal has stated many times that clone Enduras & Delicas almost put Spydie out of business.
Joe

You should take up your denial of the damage of clones with Sal Glesser. He has some distinct opinions on this topic and is far more qualified to evaluate its effect than either of us. He's a member here. You'll probably have to post in the Spyderco sub-forum though.

If an overseas manufacturer copied the Chevrolet Corvette and sold it Stateside for a fraction of the price, would that be OK with you too? I'm just trying to get a grip on the stance of your moral compass...

Does this free pass on copying extend to all things? Hamburgers? Cell phones? Blu ray movies? Humans? If one is fine then they all should be fine, right?

If human cloning becomes totally OK I'm sooooo gonna get me a Brazilian underwear model...because I can't afford the real thing . It's only fair. I should be able to have anything I want, even if I can't afford the genuine item.

Wow...just realized. It's rampant entitlement that fuels cloning.

I'd drop the mic but I think it might be a clone and could break...

 

[Mo2]

 

[Sergeua]

Hey guys is this a good throwing knife? it's out of elmax I think it should be tough.
The tanto point provides additional strength I think.
It's priced like a quality throwing knife should. I know I wish the hardware was torx.

Yes. I am hijacking this thread