Chinese junk or what?

[Guyon]

Showing us the pictures again doesn't reinforce your position. It doesn't even matter if the Chinese see copyright and patents in a different light, because nobody has made any substantive allegation of actual trademark or patent infringement. Copyright violation seems unlikely to apply to knives.

Oh sure it does. A blind man can see that those designs were stolen, no matter how you want to wiggle around in semantics.

Such duplication is not flattery. It's laziness on the cheap. And it's still wrong.

Did you copy off your neighbor's paper in school and then argue that such copying was good for the intellectual market?

 

[shecky]

Oh sure it does. A blind man can see that those designs were stolen, no matter how you want to wiggle around in semantics.

One, "stolen" is not the correct term unless the designs actually belonged to someone else. Two, like it or not, semantics are a big deal. You cannot argue coherently when you use words like "copy" and "theft" interchangeably, or mistake copyright with trademark and patent. These aren't obscure technicalities. The meaning of these words are precise for good reason and absolutely central to this whole thread.

Such duplication is not flattery. It's laziness on the cheap. And it's still wrong.

Doesn't matter if such duplication is flattery or not. Nor if it's laziness. If you feel copying is wrong, good for you. Just don't expect the rest of the world to comply to your sense of morality.

Cut the drama and come to terms with the fact that if manufacturers want a binding monopoly on their wares, it is their responsibility jump through the legal hoops to secure and defend that monopoly. Otherwise, it does not exist, and copying is pretty much fair game.

Did you copy off your neighbor's paper in school and then argue that such copying was good for the intellectual market?

???

Finally, a hypothetical that may involve copyright. Too bad it's irrelevant.

 

[Guyon]

Doesn't matter if such duplication is flattery or not. Nor if it's laziness. If you feel copying is wrong, good for you. Just don't expect the rest of the world to comply to your sense of morality.

Cut through the crap, and admit that you have no respect for people who design knives, or those who spend money and time to protect those designs.

Oh wait... you already have.

Right again. I don't care one hoot about designers, their time, energy or money spent in their craft.

The lack of respect is the crux of my argument. If you don't get it, you never will. As my grandmother used to say, "Some folks just ain't raised right."

 

[shecky]

Cut through the crap, and admit that you have no respect for people who design knives, or those who spend money and time to protect those designs.

Oh wait... you already have.



The lack of respect is the crux of my argument. If you don't get it, you never will. As my grandmother used to say, "Some folks just ain't raised right."

Now, you're changing the subject again.

Lack of respect is neither here nor there. There is no requirement that you or I respect knifemakers any more than ditch diggers or auto workers or lawyers. Being successful is all the respect that really matters in the end. My respect comes in the form of $$$ spent as I see fit. Yet you would deny me that freedom because you feel knifemakers deserve special protectionist rights, even if they don't actively secure those rights. Think about the implications of that standard. Then apply it across the board for the sake of consistency.

And then you might see who wasn't raised right.

 

[hwpaintballer]

Now, you're changing the subject again.

Lack of respect is neither here nor there. There is no requirement that you or I respect knifemakers any more than ditch diggers or auto workers or lawyers. Being successful is all the respect that really matters in the end. My respect comes in the form of $$$ spent as I see fit. Yet you would deny me that freedom because you feel knifemakers deserve special protectionist rights, even if they don't actively secure those rights. Think about the implications of that standard. Then apply it across the board for the sake of consistency.

And then you might see who wasn't raised right.

I have respect for knife makers, and I don't see how you can't when you take into consideration all the things that goes into making a great knife. Also I believe just because someone hasn't copyrighted every design that they use, many knock off make copyrighted knives any ways, that it is still unethical for someone to use their design with out permission. I also feel that your value system is severely screwed up.

 

[shecky]

I have respect for knife makers, and I don't see how you can't when you take into consideration all the things that goes into making a great knife.

Once again, irrelevant.

Also I believe just because someone hasn't copyrighted every design that they use, many knock off make copyrighted knives any ways, that it is still unethical for someone to use their design with out permission.

You may believe that. Your belief would be wrong. Particularly in this instance because copyright doesn't usually apply to knives. Generally, because copying without permission isn't necessarily unethical.

I also feel that your value system is severely screwed up.

Let's see... advocate free markets and competition. Yup... marks of a value system that's severely screwed up.

 

[markksr]

...


Let's see... advocate free markets and competition. ...

Call your unethical rationalizations whatever you want, we see you for what you really are.

 

[Guyon]

Lack of respect is neither here nor there. There is no requirement that you or I respect knifemakers any more than ditch diggers or auto workers or lawyers.

You've already made clear that you have no respect for knife designers. Little wonder that this comment went over like a box of rocks on Valentine's Day, since this is a community where many members have personal relationships with knife designers. Way to crap in the floor of the living room.

Being successful is all the respect that really matters in the end.

Success is a relative term.

Yet you would deny me that freedom because you feel knifemakers deserve special protectionist rights,

No one is trying to deny you anything. Folks here just have some basic respect for the creative efforts of others. That may be hard to understand if you see the world only in terms of dollars and cents.

 

[hwpaintballer]

Once again, irrelevant.

I thought it was pretty relevant, considering in your previous port you brought up respect.

You may believe that. Your belief would be wrong. Particularly in this instance because copyright doesn't usually apply to knives. Generally, because copying without permission isn't necessarily unethical.

Just because it doesn't usually apply doesn't mean that it has, and then it has been broken, and yes copying, or borrowing with permission (which is stealing) is unethical.

Let's see... advocate free markets and competition. Yup... marks of a value system that's severely screwed up.

I agree that free market and competition is normally a good thing, unless it is supporting a communist country, while hurting a democratic one.

 

[just10minreader]

Your grandma stole those biscuits, I mean she stole the design, I mean she stole the recipe, I mean she thefted it, I mean she violated intellectual property rights of my grandma, I mean she's immoral unethical ... My grandma told your grandma, I'm going to set your flag on fire
:foot::foot:

 

[iamtoast]

"Well, you do seem to realize that murder isn't quite the same as theft. But that isn't where your argument breaks down. Your analogy is broken even before you let it out of the gate. Murder is always a crime. Killing isn't necessarily. Similarly theft is always a crime. But copying isn't always theft, and therefore, not always a crime.

Confusing copying with theft is where many of you arguing against me go wrong."


The arguments for 'copying' and piracy are poor attempts of some to validate their own actions. It is theft, there is no way around it. By copying design or pirating music you are stealing money that rightfully belongs to those who made the design or created the music. It is theft, plain and simple, with no two ways about it.

I am reading arguments that say basically, "I can reproduce someone elses record, sell it as my own in stores or on the radio station. This is not wrong because I put my name on it instead of the original artist's." and "Since a physical thing is not stolen piracy is fine even though it takes money away from those who created, distributed, and sell the music or movies I pirate. It is not my responsibility that money is stolen not only from the original artist but from everyone else involved in the process, including the guys or girls who are payed close to nothing to stand all day in a music store trying to sell it."

Some of the people responding to this thread seem to have the opinion that whatever they do is completely fine. Please realize that the world does not revolve around you. There is no such thing as a victimless crime. When you pirate music, or illegally reproduce it without paying for it, or steal and reproduce a photo, or knife design, or can, or whatever, you are stealing money that belongs to someone else. If you cannot understand this then there really is no point in further discussion. Some of you have even written that, to you, theft is fine as long as you are not caught. All I can say further is that I will pray for you, you need it.

 

[Guyon]

Your grandma stole those biscuits, I mean she stole the design, I mean she stole the recipe, I mean she thefted it, I mean she violated intellectual property rights of my grandma, I mean she's immoral unethical ... My grandma told your grandma, I'm going to set your flag on fire
:foot::foot:

You're a very funny fellow. Thank you for that comical interlude.

 

[C.S. Graves]

Call your unethical rationalizations whatever you want, we see you for what you really are.

A captialist?

 

[shecky]

You've already made clear that you have no respect for knife designers. Little wonder that this comment went over like a box of rocks on Valentine's Day, since this is a community where many members have personal relationships with knife designers. Way to crap in the floor of the living room.

Life is tough when you run a business. A knifemaker that's in the game to gain respect will get no breaks from me. The only relevance they have to me is through the goods they offer. Even the best knife designer in the world only gets respect here if he does something like actually design knives.

Success is a relative term.

And?

No one is trying to deny you anything. Folks here just have some basic respect for the creative efforts of others. That may be hard to understand if you see the world only in terms of dollars and cents.

You seem to feel that knife designers should be afforded some kind of patent or trademark-like protections, even if they don't or can't patent their creations. This would give more protections than even patents, which have a well defined lifespan, after which copies are clearly open game.

All this stuff has already been thought out. The result is a legal intellectual property system, which knife designers are free to take advantage of. If they cannot or will not, it is not your or my burden to provide that service.

 

[shecky]

I thought it was pretty relevant, considering in your previous port you brought up respect.

Guyon was the one who brought up the issue of respect.

Just because it doesn't usually apply doesn't mean that it has, and then it has been broken, and yes copying, or borrowing with permission (which is stealing) is unethical.

Copying a design without permission isn't stealing unless the design actually belongs to someone else. There are very clear ways for knife designers to claim ownership of their designs. In the absence of actual ownership, copying is not stealing, nor is it unethical.

I agree that free market and competition is normally a good thing, unless it is supporting a communist country, while hurting a democratic one.

Talk politics elsewhere. The mods have made this clear to us several times.

 

[Chris "Anagarika"]

I think Arkeld, CS Grave & Confederate sum up what I've been thinking very well.

Copying other design without permission is wrong. However, unless enforced, it'll still happen anywhere. This is fact of life.

The company in this topic is not cheating customer, and if any the deprivation of income from original maker is not significant. Someone who doesn't care about quality knife will get anything cheap & matching his need. This is the kind of market SRM lives on, and by providing decent quality product, they actually helps their targeted customer to start appreciating quality. Even if they give lifetime warranty, anyone outside China is willing to send it in for repair? It might be cheaper just to buy another one

The observation on Chinese current economic & social condition with comparison with Japan in post WWII era is quite close. The only major differences is the cultural discipline that Japanese has (& recently Korean too growing the same way) but the Chinese do not have it across the society but only in certain groups, which I guess mainly due to vast geographical and cultural differences across the continent. I'm a Chinese myself, but have keen interest in the other two similar yet contrasting culture.

Someone who understand quality will get the right knife with deeper understanding. As such, anyone that knows the outstanding service Chris Reeve, Buck or Spyderco will be a loyal customer. This is the market segment that provides income to them, and this will not be taken away by SRM.

I see this is a case of evolution in free market across the globe. Maybe one day the company grow to be strong enough to build their own design, and some talent in China daring enough to take up designing knives as job. Given the current trend, I do see hope for SRM to transform to be better because even though they started by copying ( which is not good, but the Japanese in the past too), the way they market and the quality of the product shows potential to change to be better. Other unknown company that blatantly faking branded ones have no hope.

However, only time will tell.

 

[hwpaintballer]

Copying a design without permission isn't stealing unless the design actually belongs to someone else. There are very clear ways for knife designers to claim ownership of their designs. In the absence of actual ownership, copying is not stealing, nor is it unethical.

What about when a knife maker has claimed ownership, and then it is copied? Do you feel that that is still fair competition or ethical/legal?

 

[shecky]

The arguments for 'copying' and piracy are poor attempts of some to validate their own actions. It is theft, there is no way around it. By copying design or pirating music you are stealing money that rightfully belongs to those who made the design or created the music. It is theft, plain and simple, with no two ways about it.

Once again, copying should not be confused with something else. And once again, different types of intellectual property are being compared.

I am reading arguments that say basically, "I can reproduce someone elses record, sell it as my own in stores or on the radio station. This is not wrong because I put my name on it instead of the original artist's." and "Since a physical thing is not stolen piracy is fine even though it takes money away from those who created, distributed, and sell the music or movies I pirate. It is not my responsibility that money is stolen not only from the original artist but from everyone else involved in the process, including the guys or girls who are payed close to nothing to stand all day in a music store trying to sell it."

Again, you are mixing up your intellectual property. Broken comparisons are ineffectual comparisons.

Some of the people responding to this thread seem to have the opinion that whatever they do is completely fine. Please realize that the world does not revolve around you. There is no such thing as a victimless crime. When you pirate music, or illegally reproduce it without paying for it, or steal and reproduce a photo, or knife design, or can, or whatever, you are stealing money that belongs to someone else. If you cannot understand this then there really is no point in further discussion. Some of you have even written that, to you, theft is fine as long as you are not caught. All I can say further is that I will pray for you, you need it.

You are:

1. arguing against a straw man (...whatever they do is completely fine.)
2. making a false declaration (There is no such thing as a victimless crime.)
3. confusing types of IP again (pirate music, ...reproduce a photo, or knife design)
4. arguing against another straw man (theft is fine as long as you are not caught.)
5. ending in despair (I will pray for you, you need it.)

We can have an a honest discussion about these issues. But you have to meet me half way. Don't attribute stances to me that I don't take, get your terminology straight, and spare me the pointless religious platitudes.

 

[shecky]

What about when a knife maker has claimed ownership, and then it is copied? Do you feel that that is still fair competition or ethical/legal?

No. But then it's the owner's responsibility to make a specific legal claim of ownership and defend it when necessary. A knifemaker can claim ownership all he wants, but if he cannot or will not take the necessary steps to make that claim legally binding, he won't have much power to do anything about copying.

This isn't some way out concept. You can insist that my car belongs to you all you want. But if you cannot produce a title with your name, you probably won't get much sympathy from the law. It works the same way with intellectual property.

 

[shecky]

Copying other design without permission is wrong. However, unless enforced, it'll still happen anywhere. This is fact of life.

This is a reality that folks simply need to deal with. Plugging your ears and stamping your feet will not change anything. Every good idea (and quite a few bad ones) WILL be copied. End of story.

The question for manufactures becomes what do they do about it? Fortunately, most manufacturers have a little more moxie and creativity than tantrum throwers. They create new designs, explore new markets, advance production techniques, get copied by competitors, and the cycle goes on over en over.

Even if they give lifetime warranty, anyone outside China is willing to send it in for repair? It might be cheaper just to buy another one

It's funny, but this criticism often applies to US made knives outside the US borders, too. Lifetime warranty means little when the cost of redeeming the warranty is not economical compared with simply replacing the item.

The observation on Chinese current economic & social condition with comparison with Japan in post WWII era is quite close. The only major differences is the cultural discipline that Japanese has (& recently Korean too growing the same way) but the Chinese do not have it across the society but only in certain groups, which I guess mainly due to vast geographical and cultural differences across the continent. I'm a Chinese myself, but have keen interest in the other two similar yet contrasting culture.

It's important to remember that copying is not particularly unique to Asia. Copying is a characteristic of free markets, wherever they spring up, regardless of culture or continent.