Chinese junk or what?

springman said:
I don't want to prolong this or seem argumentative, but you seem to have taken a few words from the text that I posted and not the rest. Read it in it's entirety. What I'm trying to say is, and I've heard it said once: If Frank Sinatra were singing his song, that's fine, that's great. But if a Chinese guy were up on stage, singing that same Frank Sinatra song and calling himself Frank Sinatra, that's totally wrong.
Now, with patents, they have a shelf-life. And when the shelf-life runs out, they're open to being copied. Now, if you put your name on the design you copied, that's one thing. But if you put the designer's name on your copy of his knife, that is totally wrong. And that is all I was trying to say.
And, Guyon, about what you said about "companies like Spyderco don't allow photographs of their prototypes. They know that, if they do, their new designs, designs for which they paid money and rights in order to develop, are going to show up on the black market within months, if not weeks. "
- I totally agree with this.
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I may have misunderstood what you were saying then. After a patent expires, then yes, it becomes public domain. But I thought you were talking about copying new designs.
 
Guyon said:
I may have misunderstood what you were saying then. After a patent expires, then yes, it becomes public domain. But I thought you were talking about copying new designs.
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Thank you Guyon, for your gentleman like reply...I really appreciate that.
 
Guyon said:
I may have misunderstood what you were saying then. After a patent expires, then yes, it becomes public domain. But I thought you were talking about copying new designs.
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And if a design is never patented? Copying a new design ≠ patent infringement unless there is an actual patent involved.

Your claims about morals and ethics are incoherent and arbitrary. And you have not actually countered any of my arguments, but preferred to simply make personal attacks in lieu. That's a pretty weak hand to play.
 
shecky said:
And if a design is never patented? Copying a new design ≠ patent infringement unless there is an actual patent involved.

Your claims about morals and ethics are incoherent and arbitrary. And you have not actually countered any of my arguments, but preferred to simply make personal attacks in lieu. That's a pretty weak hand to play.
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I haven't attacked anyone. I've simply pointed to a lack of morals where said void occurs. If you interpret such points as a personal attack, well then maybe you should go talk to a therapist about that. Better yet, perhaps a priest. :D
 
shecky said:
And if a design is never patented? Copying a new design ≠ patent infringement unless there is an actual patent involved.

Your claims about morals and ethics are incoherent and arbitrary. And you have not actually countered any of my arguments, but preferred to simply make personal attacks in lieu. That's a pretty weak hand to play.
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Shecky, patents aren't the only thing that companies have to fall back on. A company doesn't even have to register a copyright for a product to have copyright protection. All they have to be able to do is prove that they came up with the design first. Look it up.

One company stealing the designs of another company, or maker, is unethical. Just because makers and companies can't afford to go after these ripoff artists doesn't make what they do OK. The fact that you have always supported this activity has left me thinking that you share these companies' ethics.
 
Keith Montgomery said:
Shecky, patents aren't the only thing that companies have to fall back on. A company doesn't even have to register a copyright for a product to have copyright protection. All they have to be able to do is prove that they came up with the design first. Look it up.
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You realize copyright protects a different kind of work than patent or trademark? How many knives fall under copyright? I suspect very few.

Keith Montgomery said:
One company stealing the designs of another company, or maker, is unethical. Just because makers and companies can't afford to go after these ripoff artists doesn't make what they do OK. The fact that you have always supported this activity has left me thinking that you share these companies' ethics.
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I disagree. One, because copying isn't necessarily stealing, and two, because copying isn't necessarily unethical. In the world of knives that I'm familiar with, I'd say it's rarely unethical.
 
My summation: Basically, I see some definite dividing lines between the Knockoff vs patent argument.

First off, if it is patented, I believe a 'rogue' company can get around it by changing certain minor elements of the design, then it's up to the courts (legal argument, interpretation up to the Judge/Judges).

Second, moral or ethical reasoning. In this case it is up to the individual to decide weather it is OK for them to buy from a company which blatantly makes design choices that converge with another company's product model, even though they are within the legal boundaries. In a Capitalist society the consumer decides (especially through purchasing power, irregardless of ethics).

Personally, I do not like the fact that a company closely follows a design pattern which is created by a different 'Artisan'. Now lets try and come to some conclusions about this...There are some features on a knife which obviously cannot be patented (ie certain blade shapes, grinds, serration patterns which are already widely used etc.), meaning that many companies use many of the basic styles. Something more radical such as locking mechanisms, specific handle shapes etc. could obviously be patented. Thus, to what degree do we analyze a new knife ans state 'hey that company just ripped off so and so knife maker'? Again, this would be a personal choice by the consumer.

In all, I do not a knockoff period. Would I buy a knife with a feature or two close to someone Else's? Maybe, but again that would be up to my discretion. The main area I am dealing with right now is that I might have be conditioned to believe that Chinese knives are junk in general. Well my argument now is shifting a bit, while I do love American knives and understand the support for domestic jobs (I'm Canadian by the way, eh...) I will lean more towards buying what ever product I like best and suits my needs, irregardless of country of origin...

TS
 
Tobacco_Spit said:
I will lean more towards buying what ever product I like best and suits my needs, irregardless of country of origin...
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It's an individual decision and you merely have to live with what you decide. When it's feasible, I'd rather support American companies and American workers than a communist system that violates human rights at the drop of a hat and cares little about American intellectual property, patents, copyrights, etc. Such a choice is not always feasible in the current market, but with knives, it's a much easier path.
 
Guyon said:
It's an individual decision and you merely have to live with what you decide. When it's feasible, I'd rather support American companies and American workers than a communist system that violates human rights at the drop of a hat and cares little about American intellectual property, patents, copyrights, etc. Such a choice is not always feasible in the current market, but with knives, it's a much easier path.
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Guyon, I understand your commitment to supporting your Country's markets, in fact that is quite admirable. However, China of new seems the furthest from a Communist system in its' daily business operations. Also, look at all the domestic knife companies going east for their products, and I bet this begins slowly as they test the waters, then a flood will come and these companies will do business there almost solely. Again, I am not saying that I want this to happen, only stating market trends that you cannot avoid...

TS
 
All knives have a feature or two that are similar to those on other knives. It is the direct copying of designs that I hate. It shows a total lack of imagination, and a willingness to take the hard work of others without paying for it. I don't care if that company is in China or the USA, it's all the same to me.
 
Tobacco_Spit said:
Also, look at all the domestic knife companies going east for their products, and I bet this begins slowly as they test the waters, then a flood will come and these companies will do business there almost solely.
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I do not agree with this assessment. If you listen to or talk to the men who run many of the better American knife companies, many pride themselves on the fact that they are able to keep substantial portions of their production inside the States and offer products that are American made. Many of these men post right here on BFC. Chuck Buck and Sal Glesser are two that come to mind right away. When I think about companies that make quality fixed blades, the same applies. I don't foresee Busse, Strider, Ferhman, etc. moving operations to China.
 
Absintheur said:
That was a simple, single example but what about the classic designs? How many companies make knives with thumb holes, how make them with thumb studs? For that matter how many makers make a sowbelly pattern, or a whittler pattern, or one of the hundred other standard patterns. Imitation is the most sincere form of flattery and as long as it is not a copy made to deceive the buyer into thinking they are buying an original I have no problem with knives of "similar" design. This company does not try to make exact copies nor do they use the original designers name even as a reference such as those sold with the claim it is an "Paul design".
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It is the companies that make direct copies that I can not tolerate. Using one or two design features from another knife is done all the time. It is probably impossible to avoid.

Many companies make exact, or almost exact copies of other companies' knives. To me it is worse if the offending company also uses the original company's trademark, but I find the exact copying of another company's or maker's design to be reprehensible. I also have a very low opinion of people that support that way of doing business.
 
Keith Montgomery said:
It is the companies that make direct copies that I can not tolerate. Using one or two design features from another knife is done all the time. It is probably impossible to avoid.

Many companies make exact, or almost exact copies of other companies' knives. To me it is worse if the offending company also uses the original company's trademark, but I find the exact copying of another company's or maker's design to be reprehensible. I also have a very low opinion of people that support that way of doing business.
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Well said and I agree 100% with your statement. The decline of ethics, heralds the decline of a society.
 
I need to know others opinion on this:
The 611 I have and use on daily basis is exactly the same design as Buck Nobleman, with one major difference: size. The blade is merely 2" while Buck has 2.5 if I'm not mistaken. They even make one 'mini' size, with the blade less than 1".

With this, can it still be considered a 'copy'?
 
Chris "Anagarika";6403693 said:
I need to know others opinion on this:
The 611 I have and use on daily basis is exactly the same design as Buck Nobleman, with one major difference: size. The blade is merely 2" while Buck has 2.5 if I'm not mistaken. They even make one 'mini' size, with the blade less than 1".

With this, can it still be considered a 'copy'?
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Hi,

As seems to be the case through most of this thread, there is no hard and fast answer to your question. In your situation, it lies in the eye of the beholder. Your 611, while similar to the Buck, isn't exactly like a Buck. It isn't marked Buck, rather it's marked 611.

All that matters here is, what do YOU think?

dalee
 
Chris, I consider the Sanrenmu 611 to be an almost exact copy of the Buck Colleague. The difference being a slight change in the shape of the handle.
 
dalee100 said:
All that matters here is, what do YOU think?
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This is moral relativism writ large. "As long as YOU think it's okay, it's okay."

Stealing is stealing. And it's wrong no matter how you slice it or rationalize it.
 
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