Chinese Shirogorov clone

They didn't have a deal and there were flamewars galore over it on Spyderco forums. I believe they started when BM Vex showed up. I also believe that Spyderco would likely lose in court so they opted to sort it out with BM behind the scenes.

That said, the whole notion that Spyderco should be able to monopolize a hole in a blade is about as absurd as Benchmade's death grip on the axis lock. Successful designs have always been copied and used - utility and profit dictate this, not what someone passed as law somewhere. The first to break these rules at every opportunity are the companies themselves - therefore frothing over what the Chinese are doing is akin to the thief complaining that he got robbed.

On a side note, the Chinese were making swords and knives for a few thousand years before America was discovered - good thing they didn't have patent laws then, otherwise we'd all be paying them royalties today.
An axis lock is much more technically involved than a simple hole in the blade. Quite different. Besides, it's not merely having a whole but size, shape and placement that makes it useful design or not.

Note that patents have a limited life unless improved upon. (Recent laws and treaties have tried extending the life of patents and copyrights, especially the latter pushed for by Disney and others, which I disagree with.)

If you can improve on a patented item, you can apply for a patent as well so long as it's deemed significant.

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Not absurd at all.
It actually promotes creativity by making it worthwhile for someone to spend the time to create, by profiting from their creation.
The key is that they don't own it in perpetuity.
Agreed

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Not absurd at all.
It actually promotes creativity by making it worthwhile for someone to spend the time to create, by profiting from their creation.
The key is that they don't own it in perpetuity.

If that's the case why are there 100x more knives, with a lot more variation between them - that feature liner locks, frame locks, lockbacks, than there are axis lock knives?
Maybe because makers of those knives aren't held hostage by someone else's monopoly on a certain design?

And what would happen if all the aforementioned lock designs were patented by a single company? Most likely no one in this forum would have a folding knife collection worth a damn, hmm?
 
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If that's the case why are there 100x more knives, with a lot more variation between them - that feature liner locks, frame locks, lockbacks, than there are axis lock knives?
Maybe because makers of those knives aren't held hostage by someone else's monopoly on a certain design?

And what would happen if all the aforementioned lock designs were patented by a single company? Most likely no one in this forum would have a folding knife collection worth a damn, hmm?

If you were told that anything you created was immediately public domain, how much money and time would you spend on creating it unless you were merely doing it for your own benefit? Do you REALLY think pharmaceutical companies would spend BILLIONS creating a drug that could be legally copied and sold by all other pharmas immediately after FDA approval? Do you think a band would create a CD just so people could take the music for free and go see the band play without having to pay an entry fee?
The idea behind the patent is to make it worthwhile for ANY inventor to benefit from the fruits of their labor, but again, NOT IN PERPETUITY.

The reason you don't see the "Axis" lock on a hundred other knives is that the owner of the patent didn't license it to a hundred other mfgrs. They licensed it to Benchmade. The patent is up effective July 2016, so you MAY see companies adding the same style (copied to the last detail) of lock to their knives soon
The liner lock, framelock, lockback is not protected by patent, hence why you see it on a multitude of knives.

So WHAT if all of the aforementioned designs were patented by the same company? That means they did the research, created something, and protected their creation. If someone else did it first, THEY would be able to protect it.

Regarding how collections would be affected, your line of reasoning misses one big point of logic: If all of those lock types WERE patented by the evil conglomerate in your fantasy, there is nothing that would prevent someone from coming up with a NEW design that doesn't infringe on the patent. They could patent their design and THEY would make money on it. CREATIVITY PROMOTED.

People whine that Spyderco patents and trademarks a hole in a blade. Why whine about it when no one else did it before them? Now that they make money off of something that only THEY did, it becomes a problem? I call major BS on that whole argument.
You want to put a Spydie hole in a blade? You shoulda' thought of it first. Otherwise, bugger off. It's the law.
 
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If you were told that anything you created was immediately public domain, how much money and time would you spend on creating it unless you were merely doing it for your own benefit? Do you REALLY think pharmaceutical companies would spend BILLIONS creating a drug that could be legally copied and sold by all other pharmas immediately after FDA approval? Do you think a band would create a CD just so people could take the music for free and go see the band play without having to pay an entry fee?
The idea behind the patent is to make it worthwhile for ANY inventor to benefit from the fruits of their labor, but again, NOT IN PERPETUITY.

The reason you don't see the "Axis" lock on a hundred other knives is that the owner of the patent didn't license it to a hundred other mfgrs. They licensed it to Benchmade. The patent is up effective July 2016, so you MAY see companies adding the same style (copied to the last detail) of lock to their knives soon
The liner lock, framelock, lockback is not protected by patent, hence why you see it on a multitude of knives.

So WHAT if all of the aforementioned designs were patented by the same company? That means they did the research, created something, and protected their creation. If someone else did it first, THEY would be able to protect it.

Regarding how collections would be affected, your line of reasoning misses one big point of logic: If all of those lock types WERE patented by the evil conglomerate in your fantasy, there is nothing that would prevent someone from coming up with a NEW design that doesn't infringe on the patent. They could patent their design and THEY would make money on it. CREATIVITY PROMOTED.

People whine that Spyderco patents and trademarks a hole in a blade. Why whine about it when no one else did it before them? Now that they make money off of something that only THEY did, it becomes a problem? I call major BS on that whole argument.
You want to put a Spydie hole in a blade? You shoulda' thought of it first. Otherwise, piss off. It's the law.

Well, aside from telling someone to piss off I agree with most of what you are saying. The idea that patents stifle innovation is ridiculous. The Axis lock patent has forced other legit companies to create their own locks that in effect do a similar thing as the axis lock (obstructing the tang of the blade from closing with a spring mechanism). Look at the SOG arc lock. Similar end result but designed and implemented very differently. Spyderco has its own version as well. Innovation.
 
Oops. Language filter didn't kick in for the family friendly section of BF.
Edited for public viewing. Feel free to edit the quote in deference to sensitive eyes.
 
You can thank Nafta for the lax trademark laws...And wait and see what happens if they push the TPP through.
 
You can thank Nafta for the lax trademark laws...And wait and see what happens if they push the TPP through.

Can you explain a little further?
I'm not understanding how NAFTA is to blame for someone not following a law that they are not subject to.
 
OP says:

" ....the seller was not trying to pass it off as a real Shirogorov."


True, but I bet he had the word "Shirogorov" in his listing....probably helped him sell it. Hmmmmm, makes you think.....
 
OP says:

" ....the seller was not trying to pass it off as a real Shirogorov."


True, but I bet he had the word "Shirogorov" in his listing....probably helped him sell it. Hmmmmm, makes you think.....

Excellent point!!
Joe
 
Yeah, f those clones!!!! That's why I only buy Dunlop tires. John Dunlop patented pneumatic tires in 1840, and all these damn clones have been copying him ever since. I say we gather all those Michelin, Goodyear, Firestone, Bridgestone, etc. tires in a big pile and burn them!
 
By the way, there is mounting evidence that there is a good chance all of these Russian "custom" knife makers are actually having their knives made in China, by the same companies making the clones.
 
By the way, there is mounting evidence that there is a good chance all of these Russian "custom" knife makers are actually having their knives made in China, by the same companies making the clones.

Where is this evidence?
 
Where is this evidence?

The fact that Custom Knife Factory sold a daboia for awhile and dropped the act and now sells the Kevin John Venom II.

http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php/1265292-Kevin-John-Daboia-AKA-Venom-2

I'm absolutely certain it happens much more than that. Most likely a lot of the American companies so highly touted engage in the same activity. Reate, yes, the company who makes really good knives, started off with cloning. Or at least employs the designer who reverse engineered and copied knives and uses the same factories as those who clone and that company, A Dai, very conveniently closed up shop when Reate announced its arrival. Todd Begg now uses them to make his mid-tech line. I'm sure he's one of the only ones forthcoming with his business.

Don't be naive. Companies are in it to make a buck. A lot won't tell you what they're doing to generate the maximum profit possible.
 
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It was never really a secret that custom knife factory uses kevin john for its knife production. They even hint at it on the website. They sell the kevin john venom new concept and say they saw it while visiting the best knife factory in china. And if you look at the faq where its asked where their knives are made they say they utilize the best factory in china for its machining and they do final fit and assembly in russia. Imho both ckf and kevin john make a quality product. I cant deny that just because they also make clones. Boker, microtech, guardian tactical and many others have used IP or cloned designs without permission whether accidental or on purpose. I just feel quality is quality. People can hate clones. I got no problem with that. But imho is a moral and ethical debate and no longer a question of quality or capabilities. I have seen clones that are better machined and have better fit and finish than the big three from the states. And i feel it was denying this to be a possibility that has led to cloning and their legit off brands to become the behemoth they have become. Much like the story of the tortoise and the hare. And if you ask me , (yeah i know that isnt the case) ckf had the right idea utilizing k. John as its the best way to turn a negative into a positive.
 
The fact that Custom Knife Factory sold a daboia for awhile and dropped the act and now sells the Kevin John Venom II.

http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php/1265292-Kevin-John-Daboia-AKA-Venom-2

I'm absolutely certain it happens much more than that. Most likely a lot of the American companies so highly touted engage in the same activity. Reate, yes, the company who makes really good knives, started off with cloning. Or at least employs the designer who reverse engineered and copied knives and uses the same factories as those who clone and that company, A Dai, very conveniently closed up shop when Reate announced its arrival. Todd Begg now uses them to make his mid-tech line. I'm sure he's one of the only ones forthcoming with his business.

Don't be naive. Companies are in it to make a buck. A lot won't tell you what they're doing to generate the maximum profit possible.

None of your examples are selling a knife as made anywhere other than China. Not what you where eluding to.
 
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