Chinese Shirogorov clone

[Varyag]

OK, so this thread went off track, discussing ethics and possible legalities, and not the knife itself.

For the record, I don't buy/use counterfeits, labeled as such or "inferred" in their marketing. Example: Had a chance to buy a super nice Rolex copy. Solid quality and hefty in weight like the real deal. I passed as it was labeled "Rolex".

I've bought genuine ZT's and other knives (and other products), and will continue doing so.

So my questions to you are:

A) Given the many months that have passed since your initial posting, what is your opinion of the knife and quality of build?

B) Assuming "A" is favorable, have you tried any of their other knives, clone/copy or not? If so, what is your opinion?

C). Who made it and can you provide a link to website?

Best

Sent from my Sero 7 Pro using Tapatalk

Dunno if OP is still active but I have one Icebreaker on the way and that should be more or less the same thing. Same claimed steel, same scale material. What I can tell you from research is that the blade steel is most likely 9cr13mov because the Chinese are very lax in what they consider D2. The scale material is titanium and has been tested by multiple people.

I can also tell you he's probably not going to be able to answer as to who made the knife. There are several company names going around and they seem to refer to the same place judging by the materials used but other than that credible information is impossible to come by.

A final thing that I've noticed (online) is that these 70 or so dollar clones, when done right, are much more refined than the 20$ ones.

As to the whole bs counterfiet/clone discussion, the mountain of hypocrisy is immovable at this point:

Spyderco clone, made in China, signed by US brand. Hilarious.

I wont even go into the details of how much "theft" Cold Steel engages in, how many ethnic "inspired" designs Spyderco has done while just slapping their hole and better steel on it, how many Buck 110 copies there are made by US brands etc. etc. No US brand has a leg to stand on in this regard, no more so than the Chinese.

 

[Ronin_Jedi]

.........What I can tell you from research is that the blade steel is most likely 9cr13mov because the Chinese are very lax in what they consider D2. The scale material is titanium and has been tested by multiple people.

..........

A final thing that I've noticed (online) is that these 70 or so dollar clones, when done right, are much more refined than the 20$ ones.

.........

As to the whole bs counterfiet/clone discussion......

Thanks for feedback. Will have to research it. I bought a little Enlan flipper and its been my EDC pocket knife ever since. One day I'll upgrade but have other, more important, expenses to worry about.

Steel: Having lived in China, nothing surprises me, including some really high-end / high quality stuff. (The "Rolex" I mention in my first post actually came from N Korea, a major means of earning hard currency for them, another reason I wouldn't buy it.)

Counterfeit vs Clone: To me, counterfeiting is the main "crime", where you 100% copy a product and also use the real products brand. That is both illegal and unethical on multiple levels. Directly copying but slapping a new brand on it is not much better, especially when comparing to real deal in your advertising.

Borrowing design elements while "making it your own" (i.e. different in many ways) is perfectly okay in my book. That's how products, and thereby society, mostly moves forward - constant innovation thru iterations, not just wholely new inventions based on sudden insights. Look at the similar stylings of cars or tech used. Some licensed, most of it not; just borrowed elements but came up with their own version.

My 2¢ worth.

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[Varyag]

Counterfeit vs Clone: To me, counterfeiting is the main "crime", where you 100% copy a product and also use the real products brand. That is both illegal and unethical on multiple levels. Directly copying but slapping a new brand on it is not much better, especially when comparing to real deal in your advertising.

IMO counterfeiting becomes immoral when there is deception involved, when the customer is led to believe that they're buying the real deal and fleeced for the difference. However, the Chinese don't approach knives any differently than the fake Luis Vouitton bags - you know what you're getting at that price point, and that is definitely not the product that's being imitated. The intended market is different as well - the person willing to spend 1000$ on a knife or a bag is not going to buy a clone and vice versa. That's as far as my opinion goes and as far as I'm concerned the rest is up to lawyers and courts. As I'm no one's paid legal counsel, its not my business to care.

If there is no deception involved, the only thing I care about is how good the end product is. In many cases its not worth it, but the knives they make are good for the price they ask for them.

If the day comes that the copy is every bit as good as the original then the burden is on Spyderco or Shirogorov or whoever to up the stakes and justify their product's worth.

Anyway, I will give my impressions when it arrives.

 

[craytab]

Now you're just being silly and not making a bit of sense . Maybe a warm bath and a nice cup of cocoa with a marshmallow on top . And a good nights sleep and you will think more clearly . You are not the forum.

You are only YOU . Uniquely miraculously YOU . NOT " the forum" . The forum is everyone who posts on the forum . Please look up the meaning of the words you use . In the morning .

No , technically the definition of forum is simply a PLACE that matters may be discussed . But it's the people that really constitute a forum . And the open and free interchange of ideas is what makes a GOOD forum .

More personal insults. There is a whole subforum dedicated to these types of off topic personal attacks. Seems like after your on topic fails you stoop to insulting me. That kind of stuff doesn't belong here.

You also seem to misunderstand what this place is. This is not an open public forum. You have no right to say whatever you want here and when you express opinions counter to opinions written into this private forum's rules, you are not free from criticism of those differing opinions. The facts are what they are. Your support of counterfeiting hurts legit knife companies, this hobby (as stated in the rules here), and this community. I'm sorry you disagree but you are wrong. If you need further clarification of where this forum stands on the issue of counterfeiting maybe go review the rules again.

 

[craytab]

Hey Mecha , thanks for your input . Have you personally had your work copied and been damaged ? I think I visited your site some time ago and don't recall seeing any cheap replicas of your work available direct from China for under $20 (which is the only type of obvious replica I have ever bought .) Didn't anyone actually read my original post ?

I have never purchased or countenanced the trade in counterfeit ANYTHING , where there is a reasonable chance that a rational collector could be fooled or that the original maker could suffer damage .That's of course only according to my own best judgement .

You made a thread about buying a counterfeit. So here you are straight up lying.

 

[Ronin_Jedi]

IMO counterfeiting becomes immoral when there is deception involved, when the customer is led to believe that they're buying the real deal and fleeced for the difference. However, the Chinese don't approach knives any differently than the fake Luis Vouitton bags - you know what you're getting at that price point, and that is definitely not the product that's being imitated. The intended market is different as well - the person willing to spend 1000$ on a knife or a bag is not going to buy a clone and vice versa.......As I'm no one's paid legal counsel, its not my business to care.

If there is no deception involved, the only thing I care about is how good the end product is. In many cases its not worth it, but the knives they make are good for the price they ask for them.
......

By counterfeiting, you are, by definition, engaging in deception. That's why I made a distinction of borrowing elements and then making it your own (so long as you are not directly copying/using others' IP, including but not limited to logos, name and actually patented technologies). Hence the reason I didn't buy that "Rolex". Had it been labeled "Mao" or some other name, then maybe I would have.

Target market: Actually, though seems logical, rich people OFTEN ARE WILLING to buy knock-offs. They just normally don't tell.

Many people who DO buy low priced goods think they're the real deal, that they're brand-owner approved low cost items. How/why? Many companies allow blemishes to be sold to recover "investment" rather than write it off completely, tax-wise. Many knife companies do this. Some are production over-runs; one of the ideas behind "outlet" stores.

The problem with the fakes, the counterfeits but not the clones, is when one of these low-ball buyers file a warranty claim. In cases like these, IP holders can be royally screwed, not just in general warranty claims but in lawsuits if the consumer was harmed by a defective item (thought to be original, not copy). Buying a Rolex clone but without the Rolex brand voids this issue. And of course these Costa are eventually passes onto the consumers at all levels of the socio-economic order pecking order.

Looking forward to your knife review.

ETA: Also understand that just because a knife (or other item) looks and functions (and possibly uses the same tech) as another, but is made in (insert country here) does not necessarily make it a fake (counterfeit, clone, whatever). Companies often fail to protect their ideas. Other companies license them out.

If Kizer were to licence a Spyderco design, make it in China but slap their own name/brand on it, many would think its a rip-off when in fact it isn't. Some of these Chinese companies make knives (and other goods) on behalf of legit US and non-US companies. Their agree with those companies may very well permit them to make their own copy so long as they are not labeled the real deal.

And just because a Chinese-made knife has a Chinese brand on it doesn't mean it actually made that knife. Many companies outsource production even within China. I have no idea if my Enlan knife was made by Enlan or Haier or some other Chinese company.

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[stonproject]

Dunno if OP is still active but I have one Icebreaker on the way and that should be more or less the same thing. Same claimed steel, same scale material. What I can tell you from research is that the blade steel is most likely 9cr13mov because the Chinese are very lax in what they consider D2. The scale material is titanium and has been tested by multiple people.

I can also tell you he's probably not going to be able to answer as to who made the knife. There are several company names going around and they seem to refer to the same place judging by the materials used but other than that credible information is impossible to come by.

A final thing that I've noticed (online) is that these 70 or so dollar clones, when done right, are much more refined than the 20$ ones.

As to the whole bs counterfiet/clone discussion, the mountain of hypocrisy is immovable at this point:

Spyderco clone, made in China, signed by US brand. Hilarious.

I wont even go into the details of how much "theft" Cold Steel engages in, how many ethnic "inspired" designs Spyderco has done while just slapping their hole and better steel on it, how many Buck 110 copies there are made by US brands etc. etc. No US brand has a leg to stand on in this regard, no more so than the Chinese.

That HK is a very old benchmade design, whom happens to own HK.... try again.

 

[Varyag]

That HK is a very old benchmade design, whom happens to own HK.... try again.

So its not a clone of the Delica then?

And if we're going to drag out more dirty laundry, what about BM's blatant "borrowing" of the Spydie hole?

Or SOG SP-24, basically an Endura clone with a few differences.


As a customer I personally don't care who stole what from whom, the sole purpose of the argument is to show how hypocritical the stance against clones is if you have at least one knife from almost any of the big US brands.

 

[robgmn]

So everyone should just do what they like? Imagine you we applied that logic to other areas of society. Hey, you enjoy driving with your eyes closed, go ahead man, everyone just enjoy what you enjoy!


The stance of this forum on this subject is very clear.

"As fakes and homage items are a legal gray area and obviously hurt the hobby, no fake or homage items may be sold on the Exchange."

http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/announcement.php?f=699&a=98

This kind of garbage hurts this hobby. You can disagree all you want but you are wrong :thumbup:

Does that mean no knife that looks like a Buck 110 can be sold?

 

[craytab]

Does that mean no knife that looks like a Buck 110 can be sold?

I'm not sure about you specific enquiry. That is not what this thread is about. Maybe ask a moderator :thumbup:

On topic. It is my understanding of the rules that you cannot sell a shirogorov counterfeit here and that supporting the counterfeit industry hurts this hobby.

 

[DocJD]

I'm not sure about you specific enquiry. That is not what this thread is about. Maybe ask a moderator :thumbup:

Hey There CrabbyCakes ! I believe we've made great progress in this discussion . Finally , you are unsure about something and recommend using a moderator to interpret the rules . Fantastic !

 

[Varyag]

I'm not sure about you specific enquiry. That is not what this thread is about. Maybe ask a moderator :thumbup:

On topic. It is my understanding of the rules that you cannot sell a shirogorov counterfeit here and that supporting the counterfeit industry hurts this hobby.

No one is selling anything here, these are just user reviews.

 

[craytab]

Hey There CrabbyCakes ! I believe we've made great progress in this discussion . Finally , you are unsure about something and recommend using a moderator to interpret the rules . Fantastic !

I'm sure about the topic of this thread. The topic of a shirogorov counterfeit is certainly covered in the rules here. If you aren't clear on that maybe go look it up. I suggest reading the rules wherever you go. You can learn a lot about the places you frequent!

No one is selling anything here, these are just user reviews.

The rules apply site wide. Maybe you missed that part. So that would mean that the opinion of this forum that counterfeits hurt this hobby also applies site wide.

 

[Varyag]

I sure about the topicof this thread. The topic of a shirogorov counterfeit is certainly covered in the rules here. If you aren't clear on that maybe go look it up. I suggest reading the rules wherever you go. You can learn a lot about the places you frequent!



The rules apply site wide. Maybe you missed that part. So that would mean that the opinion of this forum that counterfeits hurt this hobby also applies site wide.

The rules explicitly state that selling clones and counterfeits is illegal, for obvious reasons. There are no rules about discussing them in an unbiased manner, without intent to sell.

You're confusing opinion with rules.

Limiting the discussion on something just because you don't like it won't make it magically disappear or even put a dent in their sales. It is a losing strategy

 

[craytab]

The rules explicitly state that selling clones and counterfeits is illegal, for obvious reasons. There are no rules about discussing them in an unbiased manner, without intent to sell.

You're confusing opinion with rules.

Limiting the discussion on something just because you don't like it won't make it magically disappear.

No. You are confusing what I am saying with what you think I am saying. I have never said there are rules against discussing counterfeits. What I have said, and it is very hard for some people to understand, is that the position on counterfeits of this forum is made very clear in the rules: they hurt this hobby. Go read those rules again. It can't hurt.

If you don't agree then sorry, that is not what we think here. Consider discussing your counterfeits elsewhere if all you want is at-a-boy's.

 

[Varyag]

Consider discussing your counterfeits elsewhere if all you want is at-a-boy's.

I'm interested in giving and receiving information. Your approval is not necessary.

 

[craytab]

I'm interested in giving and receiving information. Your approval is not necessary.

That is exactly what you will get. Information on how wrong counterfeits are and about how this place doesn't support them. Enjoy!

 

[DocJD]

That is exactly what you will get. Information on how wrong counterfeits are and about how this place doesn't support them. Enjoy!

Crabby ! Get real and get down off your high horse . Your moral position is of no concern to me or any other sane grown-up ! You must truly suffer from delusions of grandeur or believe that you are the Pope of all Knifedom .

 

[craytab]

Crabby ! Get real and get down off your high horse . Your moral position is of no concern to me or any other sane grown-up ! You must truly suffer from delusions of grandeur or believe that you are the Pope of all Knifedom .

Name calling is childish and stupid.

No high horse. Just repeating the opinion of the forum and most of the members. Shall I quote the rule again? Maybe you missed it?

 

[Esav Benyamin]

This topic is contentious enough, without personal insults. Knock it off or I will hand out infractions and may decide to close the thread, as well. It's not like we never argued this topic before.