Chipping in Spyderco S30V

Brownshoe, to overly condense Jerry Hossum's explanation, the heat treat, though important, isn't likely the cause of the chipping. The Spyderco's and benchmades are treating very, very well. It's a science and done using the best quality controls possible, with consistancies unheard of outside NASA 20 years ago.

The way the knife is ground, on up through the different grits, as well as the ease of overheating due to a tendency to push during grinding, sometimes overheating, not changing belts or wheels as fast as needed , etc, are more likely causing the problems being reported.

I did not explain it nearly as well as Jerry did, but it makes sense when he explains it. S30V doesn't finish well, or quickly. Trying to hurry it can get you in trouble in a couple different ways.

His explanation is worth looking up. It really answers so much about the S30V "problem", which has decreased almost to the point of being gone in comparison to 3 years ago. Joe
 
Yes, I used a loop 10 and 20x. They are chips, not edge rolling. They were visible by eye, but under the loop, there are no additional chips, just the two plus tip.

Mastiff, I am a scientist with many years of QC experience, including materials testing. I know when smoke is blown up my orifice. I asked if spyderco was done in house, because a previous comment from spyderco appeared to imply that the Mule2 was heat treated by a vendor. But that may be due to its special nature.
 
S30V is a great knife steel, but sometimes you can get a blade that chips easily. Sometimes, you can sharpen away the chipped zone and get no further chipping. Sometimes, the bad steel runs too deep, and the chipping persists.

Most of my S30V knives have been great and have not chipped. I had a Manix chip, but solved it with extensive resharpening. I had an RSK chip, returned it, and the replacement chipped, too. I sent the replacement to Cliff for confirmation of the problem. He posted extensive tests which showed the blade would not stay sharp because of chipping.

On two of my S30V knives -- a Rukus and a Skirmish -- I purposely used them extremely hard, borderline abuse, and they stood up fine. No damage whatsoever.

It's time to acknowledge that sometimes S30V, for whatever reason, will chip, at least until resharpened, but sometimes even after being resharpened. And it's also important to acknowledge that S30V is an excellent steel that usually presents no problems at all. And lately, as knifemakers have gained experience, it seems that occasional problems with S30V are extremely rare.
 
Mastiff, I am a scientist with many years of QC experience, including materials testing. I know when smoke is blown up my orifice. I asked if spyderco was done in house, because a previous comment from spyderco appeared to imply that the Mule2 was heat treated by a vendor. But that may be due to its special nature.
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I don't know who, or why someone is blowing smoke up your "orifice". What would be the reason to do that? I don't think there is anything to hide. You imply drama where there is none, which seems to be your personality.

I've never made claims about Spyderco's heat treating other than to say that it's excellent, and QC is obviously excellent. They both produce knives at golden, and work with other makers. No secret there , right?

All the mules are made by makers for spyderco. To the best of my knowledge they are doing all of the knife, including heat, and final finish.

Spyderco does QC check, packaging and shipping, along with their testing and research in their own labs,

I have no idea wether Spyderco Heats in golden , or contracts out on the line produced there.It never has been an issue I cared enough to ask about, as I've always been satisfied with the golden knives. A I stated above I'm satisfied with the work whoever is doing it.

You seem to always not get it when I post something.I talk about one thing, you twist around to something else. Are you sure you're not an attorney, instead of a scientist?

My post had to do with the fact that I believed J Hossom's explanation. You come back with heat treat again. I'm done. Joe
 
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The Mastiff said:
Brownshoe, to overly condense Jerry Hossum's explanation, the heat treat, though important, isn't likely the cause of the chipping. ........The way the knife is ground, on up through the different grits, as well as the ease of overheating due to a tendency to push during grinding, sometimes overheating, not changing belts or wheels as fast as needed , etc, are more likely causing the problems being reported......S30V doesn't finish well, or quickly. Trying to hurry it can get you in trouble in a couple different ways....

Joe
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Wow. I had never heard that before concerning the early SV30 chipping issues. Makes sense. Thanks for the explanation
 
Wow. I had never heard that before concerning the early SV30V chipping issues. Makes sense. Thanks for the explanation
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Glad to Tomcrx. The real thread was much better, and more descriptive, as you would expect coming from one of the more knowledgeable knifemakers around. In addition to having a lot more knowledge than me, he writes better and is better able to get the different factors explained.

Very informative reading if you can find it. I looked at S30 a lot different after that as I understood it's strengths and weaknesses better. All steels are a balance of strengths and weaknesses designed to fufill different purposes.

Sal Glessar has that philosophy too. He sees all steels being what they are. He states they are "all good, just different".

It makes sense. They are what they are designed to be. Untill very recently there were no real "knife steels" as such. Just steels that could be adapted to knife blades.

Ironicly S30V was the first designed for knifemakers. Joe
 
I believe sandivick has been making cutlery steels for a number of years; way before s30v.
 
That would be Sandvik, not sandivick. Yes, it is a batch steel manufactured specifically to work well in knives. It does predate S30V by a good margin. There have been other steels made specifically for knives, including Vascowear and INFI. Both predate S30V. I believe S30V was the first particle metallurgy steel specifically made for knives.

I have at least 15 knives in S30V, probably more, and I've had several others I either sold or gave away as presents. I have yet to have a chipping problem with any of them. I do not own a Spyderco in S30V though so I can't speak to blades in that steel manufactured by them. I don't doubt some folks have had chipping problems. I've been lucky I guess, either that or others have been unlucky.

I do believe Jerry Hossum was correct with his assessment of the problem, and I believe the knife industry and Crucible have made improvements in their manufacturing techniques. My take is simple. If a knife is defective let the manufacturer know and replace it. Life is too short to get your knickers in a knot over one or two problem knives.
 
Silverdagger said:
I came upon a 4 carrot Diamond that somehow had been missed after decades of mining. I didn't have anything but my S30V Spyderco Native. It was about 9 feet high, so I couldn't get a good shot on it to pop it out of the earth that it had been encased in growing for millions of years. ...I mostly hit the diamond head on, with the edge of my Wal Mart Native. My blade got a micro chip. Spyderco's treatment of S30V sucks.
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Hey, I think I saw that same diamond! I got it out by using my Cold Steel Voyager with a 6-inch blade. (I had a Pygmy guide who let me stand on his shoulders), so not only was my reach just perfect, I was able to get around the diamond and pry it out. So as I told my guide, "Size is important!"
 
Confederate said:
Hey, I think I saw that same diamond! I got it out by using my Cold Steel Voyager with a 6-inch blade. (I had a Pygmy guide who let me stand on his shoulders), so not only was my reach just perfect, I was able to get around the diamond and pry it out. So as I told my guide, "Size is important!"
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Yeah, I agree. Those POS Cold Steel knives are only good for prying. Wouldn't want to, you know, be weighed down by an actual pry bar when you have a CS knife. ;)
 
Josh K said:
Yeah, I agree. Those POS Cold Steel knives are only good for prying. Wouldn't want to, you know, be weighed down by an actual pry bar when you have a CS knife. ;)
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Yep, I sold the diamond and used the money as a down payment on a Sebenza. Now I can open packages in style like everyone else! Cleaning my nails with my Gunsite was getting a bit messy....
 
Just wanted to chime in here!

I have many Spyderco knives, as that is the basis of my entire collection. Many are in VG10, H1, even GIN-1, G2, 52100, CPM M4 (think MuleTeams), etc., but quite of my blades are composed of CPM S30V stainless. My Chinook, S30V Military, Lil' Temperance, T-Mag, and a host of others have held their share against daily use, and I don't baby them. My only problem with S30V was a wire edge on a Wal Mart Native from the factory, but that was easily remedied.

I suppose it's the luck of the draw, but I've had no problem. It might not be my favorite steel, but I think it's a nice one for what I use it for. :)
 
I'll throw my 2 cents in here. Tactical Knives magazine did two different articles on the Chris Reeve Green Beret and if I remember correctly both of these developed these "chips" in the edge. While this may be a hit or miss problem it comes up enough in different forums to make me want to avoid S30V. I don't care about taking chances on a S30V knife by any manufacturer only to figure out it is chipping. I figure that by the time the next wonder steel comes out they may have that problem fixed.
 
brownshoe said:
Within two more days, the tip chipped off. Small piece, about 0.5mm, visible by the naked eye. I did use the knife to slash through 4 sheets of newsprint. This was the hardest thing the tip touched.
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So you're telling us that 4 sheets of newsprint made the tip of an S30V knife chip off? Not one possible explanation posted in this thread even comes close to explaining a few pieces of paper making a steel chip. It is akin to saying a gust of wind blew off the tip of the knife! I have a hard time believing that this is even in the realm of possibility, even if there was some kind of issue as hypothesized in previous posts.

I have many S30V knives, a number with thin and polished edges (S30V will take a wicked polished edge) and have never had a chipping problem.
 
JTC, if you want I can mail you an S30V Spyderco to try out for a week or two.
 
brownshoe said:
I believe sandivick has been making cutlery steels for a number of years; way before s30v.
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Yes Brownshoe, we have made specially designed stainless knife steels for about 50 years. For hand-held and industrial knives. Before that we supplied the industry with carbon steels. No one knows how long we have been suppling the knife industry but I am sure it's more than 100 years. Sandvik was founded in 1862 and I think we have been supplying more or less since the very beginning.

Anyway, I want to say a few general things about chipping, or tougness which is related to chipping.

Chipping occurs due to insufficient toughness. Tougness can can vary for many reasons.

1. The steel. Some steels are tougher than others. carbon steels and fine carbide steels are toughest, powder steels (like S30V) is in the middle and coarse grades (like 154CM, 440C etc) are most brittle. In any case I believe S30V should be able to handle the problem discussed here so this is not the main problem I think in this case.

2. Purity and homogenity of the steel batch. Yes, even steel can "sneak" through QC and be supplied sub-standard. Impurites and inconsistencies will be "weak points" where cracks will start. Larger inconsistensies mean more brittle material.

3. Heat treatment. This is a common one. Too slow quench means precipitated carbides which can make a tough steel behave like glass. Cooling rate should be maximum 2 minutes from hardening temp to about 600 deg C (1100F).

4. Tempering. Over-tempering (higher than 400 deg C, 630F) will lead to temper-embrittlement.

5. Grinding with insufficient cooling. Exactly the same thing as 4. If temperature during grinding exceeds the tempering temperature you have actually re-tempered the steel higher. Lowering hardness and maybe even caused it to be brittle.

6. Coating. If coating is made at higher temperature than tempering you will see a re-tempering here also.

So whats the problem in your case? I dont know. I would contact customer´service and ask for advice on how to proceed.

Regards
//Jerker
 
I hesitate to jump on this thread, but here I am anyway:cool:

First, I love spydies and don't buy many other brands bc spyderco makes knives I like and quality is uniformly excellent (in my experience).

My paramil in S30V (an early one, most likely, since I bought it as soon as they became available, and even got one with a collector club number on it) has some substantial chips in it. Two very visible missing chunks of metal from the edge.

I use my knives for all sorts of cutting jobs and sometimes shi! happens - you hit a nail or a rock or something. I don't baby them, nor do I expect them to remain pristine. Still, I was surprised to see chips of this magnitude. Having said that, the thing still cuts just fine, although it occasionally snags on some jobs. Not a show-stopper for a hard-use knife. I wish it had not chipped, I hope it doesn't happen again, but it is still my favorite chore knife.

I did not find the OP observations to be belligerent or unreasonable at all (whatever history there might be). I found most of the replies to be informative in one way or another and learned some interesting things from some of them.

Free speech works ! :)
 
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