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- Mar 8, 2008
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One is a general physician and the other is a plastic surgeon.
The BladeForums.com 2024 Traditional Knife is ready to order! See this thread for details:
https://www.bladeforums.com/threads/bladeforums-2024-traditional-knife.2003187/
Price is $300 $250 ea (shipped within CONUS). If you live outside the US, I will contact you after your order for extra shipping charges.
Order here: https://www.bladeforums.com/help/2024-traditional/ - Order as many as you like, we have plenty.
If you're able to actually get your hands on a chisel-ground scalpel, please snap a photo. I'd also be interested in the blade number and manufacturer.
We're in two "to the best of my knowledge" whirlpools here.
I wish a manufacturer/craftsman with bona fides in that medical commercial industry could show up.....
I used a lot of disposable scalpels for utility and projects here and there over a number of years and as i recall they were chisel ground....and apparently cheap. LANCETS, of course, have probably always been V-ground.
Of course, I'm still sitting here in firm belief that basically when you chisel grind a given blank it makes the edge about twice as sharp as the double-grind since it essentially cuts the edge angle in half.
Geometry again.![]()
Again, a chisel grind is not the same as halving a double bevel grind. That would be halving your edge angle, which is going to have higher cutting performance, but you can achieve the exact same result by halving the edge angle of a double bevel grind...
Obvious. A chisel grind is not the same thing as halving a double bevel grind.
Yes, it is halving the edge angle which gives a higher level of cutting performance.
I think a chisel profile is going to be sharper, i.e. a better cutter as you say above, even after halving the edge angle of a double bevel grind.
Edge strength---a different story.
Sharpness is the diameter of the apex, not the geometry behind that apex--sharpness and blade geometry combine to give you cutting performance. A chisel profile will not be a better cutter than a double bevel grind of equal included edge angle. Can you find a single scientifically valid assertion for that? What would the mechanism be that would produce this higher cutting performance?
Again, a chisel grind is not the same as halving a double bevel grind. That would be halving your edge angle, which is going to have higher cutting performance, but you can achieve the exact same result by halving the edge angle of a double bevel grind...
Sharpness is the diameter of the apex, not the geometry behind that apex--sharpness and blade geometry combine to give you cutting performance. A chisel profile will not be a better cutter than a double bevel grind of equal included edge angle. Can you find a single scientifically valid assertion for that? What would the mechanism be that would produce this higher cutting performance?
The ball goes back and forth. What a match.
Can you?
I thought that was the whole conundrum here....we can't find anyone with bona fides.
Scientific?? Well, one of my many virtual mentors on edges is Prof. Roland Phlip, the ballisong guy. He's probably a PhD. Is that scientific?
Your turn. Whose your "scientist" ? Throw some of your stuff down now.
.......Also, I applaud you both (EChoil and FourtyTwoBlades) for remaining civil about this. That's not an easy thing for most to do on the internet. So I award both of you two totally arbitrary and important, but simultaneously completely valueless "internet points". Feel free to brag about them to your friends, as long as you don't try to redeem them for a cash value, you should be happy.
:thumbup:
I've thoroughly explained my reasoning using scientific concepts, and you're making an attempt to shift burden of proof, as well as a combined appeal to authority/genetic fallacy.
However, a lot of the physical dynamics of edged tools I've learned either from engineering resources or from folks like the infamous Cliff Stamp, who, despite my subtle disagreement with some of his conclusions and finding his attitude commonly abrasive, is a physics professor and has devoted a tremendous amount of time and painstaking effort into the scientific research of the performance of cutting implements.
......There is nothing inherent in a chisel ground blade that must mean it is ground to half the edge angle of a v ground blade. We are comparing the edges given the same theoretical angle because it is the only way to compare them.
And while the idea of scalpel blades being v or chisel ground is an interesting discussion, it is conjecture to cling to the notion that chisel ground blades are for some reason sharper, given that there is no geometric possibility.
The misstatement from the doctors perspective is an error of language which could happen any number of ways (i.e. between two different models of scalpel available, the chisel ground was sharper or more effective) which do not attempt to address more than the situation at hand, let alone make a sweeping generality about the inherent properties of edge geometry.