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Chisel Grind...Why?
- Thread starter d762nato
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A knife with only one ground bevel on one or both faces would be a zero grind. One with two or more bevels from spine to edge would be a compound grind (with ones featuring more than a primary and secondary grind often being called a "facet grind.") A knife that only has grinding performed on one side of the blade, with the other left flat is a chisel grind. A knife with bevels on both sides is a double bevel grind. If both sides are ground identically it's a symmetrical grind. Not all of these terms are mutually exclusive.
"V" grind can be a confusing term simply because it can either mean a double bevel, or it can be used to indicate a flat grind as opposed to hollow or convex, which is why I usually avoid the term unless the meaning is explicit.
So to clarify, all of the scalpel blades I've seen were symmetrically ground with a zero grind (as far as I could detect--some may or may not have had a microbevel applied.)
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[video=youtube;ZGGH99CytV8]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZGGH99CytV8[/video]
[video=youtube;oQXx4e_x1eM]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oQXx4e_x1eM[/video]
The little bit of research I'm willing to put into the scalpel/chisel grind thing resulted in this :
Pages 147-149 of the document contain the pertinent information:
Also, I wonder if this was what Sam was referring to, in his post above, in Mr. Emerson's writings in re: the tactical aspect:
Et cetera.....
Won't bore you with more. Read further at the source if you are interested.
Essentials of Cataract Surgery - Bonnie An Henderson, Roberto Pineda (II.) - Google Books
https://books.google.com/books?id=b...re most scalpel blades chisel ground?&f=false
https://books.google.com/books?id=b...re most scalpel blades chisel ground?&f=false
Pages 147-149 of the document contain the pertinent information:
"Tissue resistance is halved with a chisel ground scalpel blade compared with V-ground scalpel blades....because the number of points on the blade is halved. The blade edge is thinner and sharper [compared with a V-ground blade]...."
Also, I wonder if this was what Sam was referring to, in his post above, in Mr. Emerson's writings in re: the tactical aspect:
".....Chisel ground bevel-UP creates an inverse V-wound; chisel ground with bevel down creates an upright V-wound..." [ibid]
Et cetera.....
Won't bore you with more. Read further at the source if you are interested.
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Doctors are what I call "Stupid Smart". They've spent a lot of time studying a difficult subject and unfortunately for some it causes them to develop that god complex that we see on TV all the time.
This makes them think they know all about everything but they really don't become a master carpenter or physicist just because they can locate your major organs in 3 tries or less.
because the number of points on the blade is halved. The blade edge is thinner and sharper [compared with a V-ground blade].
We already went through this on the graph paper. Thin stock = thin blade = sharp grind.
Now since surgical tools are consumable it's probably easier to just give one size a pass on the old grinder. I won't debate that.
interesting thread!
I had never tried a chisel grind knife and had only used them in disposable razors and actual chisels. i just sort of assumed chisel was good for scraping or precise slicing, and my big fat bruks axe is the way it is so it doesnt chip while hacking.
i recently wanted go try it so i got a kershaw cqc8 the other day and i really, really like it (the knife mostly, though the grind is servicable)
its def quicker to sharpern, but not really less difficult.
one statement confused me, About razors:
my disposables are indeed chisel, but my straight razor is hollow V ground. im no grind expert, what am i missing ?
so ya now im in the market for a real cqc8 !
I had never tried a chisel grind knife and had only used them in disposable razors and actual chisels. i just sort of assumed chisel was good for scraping or precise slicing, and my big fat bruks axe is the way it is so it doesnt chip while hacking.
i recently wanted go try it so i got a kershaw cqc8 the other day and i really, really like it (the knife mostly, though the grind is servicable)
its def quicker to sharpern, but not really less difficult.
one statement confused me, About razors:
my disposables are indeed chisel, but my straight razor is hollow V ground. im no grind expert, what am i missing ?
so ya now im in the market for a real cqc8 !
OK, I thought I knew all that but you certainly explained it well. Thanks.
Yup on the confusing part.
Ya know....problem is you're one of the only ones who is so detailed in this stuff. Everyone else, myself included, tends to skate over such detail---I guess, to you, we tend to turn it into jargon somewhat in the interest of brevity. I follow you though. I see how you must pull hair in trying to explain to some of us at times.
And here I thought the vast majority of scalpel blades were chisel ground. In my experience, having dated a few doctors (WOMEN) and had access to a bunches of scalpels and lancets (double-edged scalpels) for chores, etc. over the years, it's just what I seemed to have noticed. Maybe there are a higher percentage of "double bevel" scalpels out there than I thought.
'N thanks......
Gotta disagree with you there. Maybe they're stupid-smart in The Shuswap, but here in The Sprawl they're pretty damn smart--no stupid involved.
I think what you're calling "stupid" may be more the lack of socialization skills most of them miss out on once they submerge for intense study at age 18 and from which they are spit out the other side as doctors around age 26 or 27 to begin practice...you know, those years you and I were out and about interacting with people and peers while they were trapped in the dorm and emergency room doing doctoring.
The ones I've been close to may show a little "weirdness," yeah....but certainly not stupid by ANY means. Just sayin'....
You're commenting on an excerpt I provided.
If you were to actually READ the material from which I quoted, you'd see how they have defined "points," and the related background to bring them to that statement...and it (their meaning) should become much clearer to you. You're out of context here. Read the whole section I mentioned if you're interested in finding out everything they said.Did we? I sort of skimmed that one. It didn't look interesting--just more of same at the time. Hell it was 8 pages ago wasn't it? And I developed this "thing" about graph paper while in college. Had to do with that little incident in a biology class with the frogs, the scalpels and my lab partner, Suzy. Kept me from the hallowed halls of academia for a while. So if I missed something I apologize. You and the docs must be in agreement on it then.....
Same cop-out the razor guys tried. I think if double were better all you'd see out there is double. In an earlier post I mentioned razor manufacturers having enough markup to absorb such a situation easily---they're so over priced (and thus margined) already that if they were better with a bit more expense they'd be on the shelves. Apparently they ARE out there to an extent, according to what some have advised me here.
Now....you think the MEDICAL FIELD doesn't have a bit of padding in there from production costs to retail (maybe even a tad more than razor blade manufacturers)??
I do. They don't keep from producing V-grind scalpels due to higher cost--they're out there as we've also been advised here.I'd still bet the majority of medical "scalpels" out there are chisel. Because they are so sharp and create a more healable incision in general. Hope someone proves me wrong. Seriously.
Wow. Lots of info in this thread. Also lots of over thinking and therory.
I'm just a simple blue collar guy. And all I can offer to this discussion is this...
It doesn't matter if I cut something with my Emerson Mini CQC 15 or my Spyderco PM2. In the end it is going to end up in two pieces.
I'm just a simple blue collar guy. And all I can offer to this discussion is this...
It doesn't matter if I cut something with my Emerson Mini CQC 15 or my Spyderco PM2. In the end it is going to end up in two pieces.
Best argument for a $5 jarbenza I ever heard.
Ahhh.... But a Jarbenza doesn't have style.
If I'm going to carry something that small it will be my Super Blue Manbug.
Really though. Who here in their real world life is going to cut something and wish they had a V edge instead of a chisel grind or vise versa?
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OK, I thought I knew all that but you certainly explained it well. Thanks.
Yup on the confusing part.
Ya know....problem is you're one of the only ones who is so detailed in this stuff. Everyone else, myself included, tends to skate over such detail---I guess, to you, we tend to turn it into jargon somewhat in the interest of brevity. I follow you though. I see how you must pull hair in trying to explain to some of us at times.
And here I thought the vast majority of scalpel blades were chisel ground. In my experience, having dated a few doctors (WOMEN) and had access to a bunches of scalpels and lancets (double-edged scalpels) for chores, etc. over the years, it's just what I seemed to have noticed. Maybe there are a higher percentage of "double bevel" scalpels out there than I thought.
'N thanks......
Any time. I've got a few doctor and surgeon friends I can ask regarding the grind issue. If they really were chisel-ground so frequently, though, I'd expect to find them available in both left- and right-beveled variations according to hand dominance and cutting task. They'd be good on narrow blades for making tight circular cuts, but remember that while the deflection forces are reduced on the one side, they're increased on the other, so tissue against the beveled face would get pushed harder than tissue against the flat face.
I play one on TV.
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Also, doing some looking, the blades in this catalog have numerous examples that seem to show blades as beveled on both sides.
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Wish you'd ax them. Of course they'll probably be grind-stupid.
In that link I put up (I THINK that's where I read it) I actually read another section where they talked about how quickly some EXTREMELY sharp/.fine scalpels dull to being unuseable. They mentioned that for surgeries involving some longer incisions, surgeons might use two or three blades to complete it. Fer real.... Ask them about that too if you get a chance. It surprised me but I read it.
