"Choppers" vs. a saw

[1066vik]

Nice post!
Well said.

 

[wildmike]

Good Post Corp.

I have gone through the long term survival experience. Quite honestly I wouldn't have made it or lived nearly as well if it weren't for my H.I M-43 kukri. The kukri served not only to chop (and as a chopper a friend who has seen it in use said it cuts better than most axes), but to drawknife and every other use I could wring out of it.

I have a few other choppers today, but all of them are anemic compared to the Kukri. It has proven itself to me through experience to be the ultimate survival tool.

 

[hollowdweller]

The only real downside to the big choppers is that you have to develop a skillset to use them well. .

:thumbup:

There's a definate technique.

First dont' chop straight down.
Second dont' chop straight thru.
Third dont be afraid to switch positions or sides if you can.
Fourth be sure to place your strikes to where each one will reach the max amount of depth and take out the most wood.
Fifth always be thinking about your next strike. Don't box your blade in by making the notch too narrow or you will only be able to take tiny bits of wood out.

One of the advantages of a khuk blade is when you are nearly thru a log and you are sort of boxed in you can use the natural curve to cut on the other side and under a log to finish the cut.

 

[dawsonbob]

First let me say that if anyone thinks I'm calling them out, I'm not, I'm just going to post a lot of stuff in one post.

[Stepping On Toes]
If you are going to only carry one tool in the bush -- for camping, bushcrafting, or living -- you're a fool. There, I said it.
[/Stepping On Toes]

Now, people seem to be thinking only of conventional knives as choppers. Personally, long knives, I don't consider very good choppers. I carry them, but I carry them for other purposes. However, I'm going to compare to saw to real choppers -- axes, machetes (the whole family) and kukri.

When you talk about real choppers, rather than just a long knife, you're in different territory. I've posted these before, but for sake of argument, here's my favorite combos, and their choppers:

Be advised, in the bottom pic, the tomahawk is the chopper, not the knife.

With any of the choppers in that pic, I will get through wood faster and with less effort than with one of those pruning saws guys love so much. When you get to wood that's big enough that those won't work well, then you're at the size of wood where your pruning saw won't work either. With choppers like those, you don't just flail away. If you're flailing away, then sure, you're going to think the chopper takes more effort than a saw -- but it's because you're using the chopper in the most inefficient way possible. You use gravity and technique when chopping, not brute strength. Your muscles start the chopper, and guide it to its target. My arm and shoulder hurt a lot more, and I'm breathing harder with a saw than with any of the above choppers.

Safety? Well, I've cut myself almost every time I use a small saw. I've never cut myself with a chopper. If you are talking about safety while swinging away, then if you just keep any body parts out of the way during the swing, AND the follow-through, you won't hit yourself.

The other complaints I see is axes that don't chop well because of obtuse edges. That's not the tool's fault, it's the guy who sharpened its fault -- whether the owner or the guy at the factory. While we are on the subject, does anyone teach axe skills anymore? It was a big deal when I was a Scout to learn axecraft. First thing you had to learn was how to put a proper edge on it, and you did it with a stone, not a belt sander. You also learned to hew with the axe (or hatchet if you prefer), so that you could get fairly straight sides to a cut and whatnot. The poster above is right: a lot of people who used axes a lot will tell you to use a 3/4 or full size axe for bucking and limbing and the hatchet for hewing. When you split with a hatchet, you don't swing it at the end of the round, you place the bit on the side near one end, and slam both into another log to set the bit, and then a quick twist splits the rounds. or, you can place the hatchet on the end of a round, slam both down to set the bit and then pick both up together and bring them down to split. If you need to split something large you use a two-handed axe, or you use wedges and such with the hatchet to split. To make straight sides, you place the hatchet where you want to hew, with one side of the bit square to the piece you are going to keep, and use a baton on the poll to progressively hew away the uneven edge.

Those techniques also work with the hammer poll, or plain poll hawk or kukri, and all but the splitting work with a machete as well. using a baton for detail work takes away that factor of safety concern as well.

Using a baton to fell, split and hew with a long knife works as well, and provides good control for minimal effort and plenty of safety.

The only real downside to the big choppers is that you have to develop a skillset to use them well. But the up side is, that once you have that skillset, you have a more versatile, easier to maintain tool.

Carry what you like, but don't disparage what the other guy uses.

An excellent post, Cpl. Most excellent, indeed.

While I agree — in spirit — with what you've said, I also agree that it might be different from individual to individual.

For some of us the saw really is a better option due to factors like age or physical limitations. I can no longer chop for any length of time, but I can still saw, so the saw has become my most used method of cutting wood to length. Wasn't always like that, but time catches up with us all.

Heavy duty chopping simply won't work for many of us, and we don't want to stay home, so it's Saws R Us or nothing. I think local has a lot to do with it, too.

All in all, though, an excellent post.

 

[hollowdweller]

For some of us the saw really is a better option due to factors like age or physical limitations. I can no longer chop for any length of time, but I can still saw, so the saw has become my most used method of cutting wood to length. Wasn't always like that, but time catches up with us all..

True. Any sort of khukuri or big knife that is full tang is the hardest on my shoulder.

Partial (stick) tang easier for me then hatchet easier still and then saw.

 

[vector001]

Here's the saw. It worked really well, and it's pretty damn light:

Thoughts?

i don't consider it to be an either/or proposition, brother...;


a folding saw just like that is part of my Get-Outta-Dodge set-up, which I carry wherever and whenever that I can;

a long Gen 1 Mk V Tomahawk and a machete, plus a small chisel and a multi-tool are my bare kit, when i am not travelling with miniature versions, such as the ECO Hawk and Fast Axe 2.

- the hawk and long knife/machete are the core elements of the kit.


I agree that the saw is very good, and as i have not read through this giant thread completely (which i will), someone may have mentioned "Never chop when you can saw" - which i agree with, but there is a silent problem in that maxim -

"What if i can't saw?"


a lot of us do nothing more than car camp or go softly into the wilderness here, and the choice of tools nakedly shows it. - lots of things can happen to a saw that won't happen to a chopper.

my advice is that if you are going on an outing that might turn into a survival (or rescue) situation, bring something to chop with.


minimal kit, with lots of compromise, is tough to manage contingencies with.

the problem with real trouble is you cannot expect it - you just have to choose your level of perparedness for it.


here in California, I can travel on foot the entire ridgeline of the state in much of the year and hit everything from desert, to forest, to deep snow - here, a saw, and the lovely things a saw can make out of the natural resources (which might not be available anyways) is not good for pulling thorny brush aside quickly and easily (tomahawk - the saw improvisation would be a forked branch, which isn't always available) - a saw can't dig in snow or earth to well (a machete is great for making snow shelters and debris huts, especially emergency ones)...

...machetes and proper tomahawks can both be pretty good for catching fish quickly, and sometimes for dispatching game immediately. - sure, you can make something with the saw to substitute, if the wood is there - which it is not here, commonly - but that means the saw-bearer will have to have a lot of active forsight.

- maybe that describes the brethren here (the forsight comment), dunno.


the fact is, the necessity for tools is usually inversely proportional to one's experience and mental preparation - like many here, i could go out into the woods most of the year naked, and be good to go after a while, and stay out indefinitely, i'd wager - i wouldn't want to subject some poor hiker to my middle-aged nudity though - har! - plus the fact that going prepared is always optimum and more convenient. :thumbup:


a TOPS (little) folding saw (which cuts metal) and a big folding knife and an ECO Hawk are what I carry when i can't carry the bigger brothers that i have described - usually when i am in the city, where the saw can make a baton and a ECO Hawk haft from a handy tree branch in no time, and i will be able to move, lightly armed and tooled-up, to a safer location if there is civil unrest or disaster, etc.

meanwhile, that combination stays in a tiny bag, until they are needed, and they are lightweight, as you have appreciated here....


so keep the saw, is my "thoughts," brother - but layer your system more with a lightweight proper hawk and.or long knife (at least) IMHO, if you leave the trail, etc.

HTH

vec

 

[RickJ]

I like both and would much rather have both than just one or the other. I usually like to have a large folding saw, I also have the saw blades on my Leatherman ST300, My Vics, Usualy an Outrider and a Fieldmaster. Big knives as stated can do some things better and faster but again I like to have both. I learned very early in my Army career about the folding saw, I was on deployment and we had a SF Medic with us, he used a folding saw all the time. I read in a book that you should saw your way to survival, sorry can't remember which book but I agreed with those words.

RickJ

 

[beef]

Cpl Punishment, would you or someone else perhaps like to do an axe skills thread with pics? It'd make a nice sticky.