Civilian or P'Kal

I have owned or used neither, but I know a bit about the designs that might help your decision.

The P'Kal is designed specifically for Pakal, so depending on what type of style or training your are familiar with, it may not work out so well. It can be used as a utility knife, but it isn't the best in that field.

The Civilian is designed to be useable by people with a wide range of martial arts experience, but is not designed for any utility use. Some people do, but I don't think Spyderco will warranty damage caused by using it for "regular knife stuff."

Also consider: The Chinook, the Manix (1 or 2), and if you can find one, the Yojimbo.
 
this is not an EDC knife, centofante for that. so reply just with self defense in mind. no formal blade training. and spydieguy the p'kal has an emerson feature and those are more EDC knives.
 
With no formal training, anything sharp is going to work equally poorly IMO, but the P'kal is built around a very specialized technique. If you're not planning on serious study with it, buy the Civilian.
 
I have owned, trained with, and carried both models as well as many others..

Civilian= Large, Great Reach, and will produce serious, nasty damage..But it deploys basically like any other Spyderco, (pull it out, open it with Spydie Hole). For SD, I would go for a blade that deploys faster.. But just the sight of this thing is enough to scare an attacker away..

P'Kal= Is a great one.. Deploys fast, but when deployed as designed the cutting edge is facing toward you, its more for stabbing and retracting back.. It takes practice and alittle getting used to. Also it comes with a low-ride clip which doesn't leave much to grab when trying to get it out in a hurry (something else you must practice). You can get clips for it that will leave more handle sticking out of your pocket.. Over all I really like it but there are better options out there..

Ones I really like are Spyderco Delica Waves and Endura Waves, simple, basic designs at a great price point. Clips can be switched to deploy in the traditional grip or reverse grip. They are easy and fast to deploy and can be mastered with very little practice

But my favorite is a Waved Karambit like Emerson's Combat Karambit. It deploys super fast and the claw like blade is super deadly.. That round hole on the handle gives you great purchase and makes it harder to be knocked out of your hand...

If a fixed blade is ok for you, Ka-Bar's TDI series is outstanding..

hoped this helped alittle
heres alittle short vid I made deploying a Emerson Karambit
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LuJan4rK6nc
 
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The Civilian was designed for use by someone with minimal training, the P'kal is a much more specialized knife intended for a specific system of SD.

Paul
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The civilian is specifically designed to be able to have use to people with no specific martial arts training. All its used for is practically slash cuts....anyone who can hold the knife and swing it correctly at body parts will cause NASTY cuts that I can almost garuntee will stop an attacker. Ones it makes contact with someone its almost impossible to pull away without getting caught by that nasty recurve and those nasty teeth. My vote goes civilian.....you can also always zip tie wave it yourself to make the deploy speed just as fast as anything else.
 
thanks for the replies guys.

I'd love to get an emerson combat karambit, but I can get a real good deal on spydercos at the moment...but i can also get some good pricing on auto BMs and might grab one of those too...
 
Autos are fun, but they are like any other type of machine with more parts than needed, they leave more room for something to go wrong. Springs, Faulty Deployment, some have double safetys that can become engaged in your pocket so when you pull it out to fire it, it doesn't.. I'd stick with manuals bro, but thats just MHO..
 
LambAndMartyr said:
thanks for the replies guys.

I'd love to get an emerson combat karambit, but I can get a real good deal on spydercos at the moment...but i can also get some good pricing on auto BMs and might grab one of those too...
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I would steer clear of Kerambits all together. They are possible the most specialized knife you can buy for SD. Not to mention that being most are closed ring for grip/indexing they classify as a "brass knuckle" and are thus illegal in most places.

The P'Kal is good for inside edge P'Kal grip which is very specialized. The Civi has at least an inch of reach on the P'Kal and is the most terrifying thing anyone could ever encounter. Truthfully both are defense-built but the P'Kal still classifies as a usable knife (instead of a last-ditch escape).

There is an amazing video on youtube talking about the Kerambit and most knives/grips, etc. It's not flashy but cuts through the BS:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=29N7C42LRh4
 
Snagblade said:
Not to mention that being most are closed ring for grip/indexing they classify as a "brass knuckle" and are thus illegal in most places.
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Not sure where you get that from.
In Canada, where brass knuckles are illegal, plastic knuckles are illegal, brass knuckle-handled knives are illegal, D-guard bowies are illegal, the karambit is LEGAL.
If a place like this doesn't consider them knuckle dusters, where DO they classify them as such?:confused:
 
One thing the karambit has going for it is when used in the reverse grip one can throw punches with it like a boxer and do harsh damage, its as if you have a knife attached to your knuckles. With your finger in the ring, it gives you far more control than a traditional knife and is nearly impossible to drop during a fight..
 
Intentions are grand - and of little value as concerns results.

I've carried a Civilian and a P'Kal.

Practice a bit or more and either can be used well for "self defense". So can any knife.

I like the P'Kal more as it makes a decent EDC. The P'Kal performs most daily cutting tasks just fine. I prefer the CBL lock to lockbacks, since closing is more convenient and the CBL is probably stronger. If performing tasks that require some belly or a strong tip, then look elsewhere.

The P'Kal also is smaller than the Civilian, so it is more likely to be carried.

I took the "wave" bar off, as I don't like the location on the P'Kal (or any of the Spyderco knives for that matter) - too far forward IMO. Added a wrapping of fishing line covered by super glue to the top of the thumb hole to ease opening.

The Civilian is more limited in uses and really gets attention when you pull it out - attention is not always nice to have. The blade of most Civilians is serrated, an issue for some cutting tasks and for resharpening, and the blade shape limits its use much more than the P'Kal. That serrated edge will cut through a lot of cloth, and what is under it, very well. Chances are you'll need to carry another knife if you carry a Civilian.

If you have limited funds, I'd recommend the P'Kal as a first purchase. That way, when you (probably) decide carrying a knife strictly for self defense is an unneccessary PITA, you still have a decent EDC knife that you will carry.

Get a Civilian later, as the design is "cool", has its merits, and shows a different design than most knives.
 
stabman said:
Not sure where you get that from.
In Canada, where brass knuckles are illegal, plastic knuckles are illegal, brass knuckle-handled knives are illegal, D-guard bowies are illegal, the karambit is LEGAL.
If a place like this doesn't consider them knuckle dusters, where DO they classify them as such?:confused:
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It may be legal but stand in court with one and hope nobody has seen any Riddick flicks =p

Much of the law is interpretation. With all the "punching" moves that some people have marketed Kerambits as, I wouldn't think it would be hard to put 1 and 1 together. Regardless, it's still a very specialized weapon for the average less-than-trained person.

Nunchucks are cool too. Doesn't make them a SD golden fleece.
 
Snagblade said:
Regardless, it's still a very specialized weapon for the average less-than-trained person.

Nunchucks are cool too. Doesn't make them a SD golden fleece.
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It is a specialized knife. I like them, but I feel there are better knives for SD(Chinook springs to mind).
Can't have the chucks here in Canada though. Absolutely illegal.:(
Not a big loss though; a rigid stick hits HARDER.:thumbup:
 
hissatsu1 said:
One thing the karambit has going for it is when used in the reverse grip one can throw punches with it like a boxer and do harsh damage, its as if you have a knife attached to your knuckles. With your finger in the ring, it gives you far more control than a traditional knife and is nearly impossible to drop during a fight..
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Punching with a Kerambit is akin to using a gun as a clubbing device. It's a trapping weapon at the roots.

Most Kerambits also have much less range. If you were to punch with one as described it would not increase your reach almost at all while someone with a Endura has effectively added almost 4" of reach. Remember what happened to Hollyfield vs Lewis? :(

Your finger is also in the loop so when they cut your hand it stays there.

All of this is just recycled from that video I found. It's the best footage, theory and sparring I have found on Youtube (in fact, all his videos are).

To avoid more thread hijacking I would prob go with the P'Kal if you were tempted to carry it for other tasks. The Civi is superior for reach, intimidation, and it's properly designed for 99.5% of the people out there but it also won't open a sandwich wrapper in the office very well.

If you want to go P'Kal you gotta learn the draw and basics quick. Without the draw, proper grip transition, and moves its not a great option (it's just a strangly shaped knife with bad ergos in hammer/saber grip). For those who got it down, it's a great option for SD. However, even a Shivworks guru in a theoretical fight would be dang afraid going up against a 4" reverse S. It's an inch of reach and a TON of cutting length.

If I could legally carry a 4" Civi and wanted a backup to a gun, I would carry one. If you end up against multiple assailants it's a nasty blade and likely the first time one gets cut the rest will run screaming for their mommies.

The best option is to avoid needing a folding bazooka in the first place. :)
 
stabman said:
It is a specialized knife. I like them, but I feel there are better knives for SD(Chinook springs to mind).
Can't have the chucks here in Canada though. Absolutely illegal.:(
Not a big loss though; a rigid stick hits HARDER.:thumbup:
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Agreed on the Chinook. It's mean looking and .75" longer or so. It also has specialized MBC qualities but doesn't fight the more traditional grips.

The nunchuck was a joke but I agree with you on the stick :).
 
Snagblade said:
Punching with a Kerambit is akin to using a gun as a clubbing device. It's a trapping weapon at the roots.

Most Kerambits also have much less range. If you were to punch with one as described it would not increase your reach almost at all while someone with a Endura has effectively added almost 4" of reach. Remember what happened to Hollyfield vs Lewis? :(

Your finger is also in the loop so when they cut your hand it stays there.

All of this is just recycled from that video I found. It's the best footage, theory and sparring I have found on Youtube (in fact, all his videos are).

To avoid more thread hijacking I would prob go with the P'Kal if you were tempted to carry it for other tasks. The Civi is superior for reach, intimidation, and it's properly designed for 99.5% of the people out there but it also won't open a sandwich wrapper in the office very well.

If you want to go P'Kal you gotta learn the draw and basics quick. Without the draw, proper grip transition, and moves its not a great option (it's just a strangly shaped knife with bad ergos in hammer/saber grip). For those who got it down, it's a great option for SD. However, even a Shivworks guru in a theoretical fight would be dang afraid going up against a 4" reverse S. It's an inch of reach and a TON of cutting length.

If I could legally carry a 4" Civi and wanted a backup to a gun, I would carry one. If you end up against multiple assailants it's a nasty blade and likely the first time one gets cut the rest will run screaming for their mommies.

The best option is to avoid needing a folding bazooka in the first place. :)
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I do see your point on the karambit, but I would much rather have a faster more durable edged-weapon, the karambit gives me this.. But everyone is different.. I like a weapon that is easy to hold on to even if I somewhat loose my grip. The fact that I can punch with it or hold it by the ring alone gives me the reach that you say I would lack..
 
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