Civilian or P'Kal

[Snagblade]

I do see your point on the karambit, but I would much rather have a faster more durable edged-weapon, the karambit gives me this.. But everyone is different.. I like a weapon that is easy to hold on to even if I somewhat loose my grip. The fact that I can punch with it or hold it by the ring alone gives me the reach that you say I would lack..

I guess it's all relative. My brother has a Spyderco Kerambit and it's a great blade (and sharp as hell). I think it would be *decent* at daily chores but having a shorter blade it would be a shame to dull it.

Truthfully whatever someone picks they should feel comfortable with (and hopefully a little training). They should prob have a keychain knife to use for most cutting chores so their SD blade (if that's why you want it) stays hair-popping sharp. The Spyderco Cricket and Spin are great options for the coin pocket in your jeans.

 

[shangchi108]

I prefer the P'Kal because it fits my style. But you may also want to consider an Endura with Emerson Opener. It can be adapted to Pikal techniques, has more length and utility than the P'Kal, and is less expensive. The P'Kal, however, is better designed for Pikal purposes, is smaller and less obtrusive, and is simply a class-act design.

The Civilian was designed for people with little or no training, who wanted something sharp in their hands while wildly thrashing about trying to defend themselves. Not really designed for utility purposes. One-trick pony.

 

[senoBDEC]

Actually I would think the Civilian wouldn't be a great knife for "thrashing about wildly" - it seemed more to me that placing and ripping or parabolic slashing through was the ideal methodology since it really isn't suited for stabbing.

Something that IMO would do better at both utility and self-defense (slashing) would be the Tasman Salt... or Harpy (non SS handle).

My personal preference remains the Delica 4 Wave or P'kal, because the motion to open them is much smaller and generally EASIER under pressure than a longer (folding) blade.

 

[Crocodilo]

With no formal training, any thing sharp would work the same.

Sorry to disagree. The straight thrust is one if not the most important move for those holding a sharp thing and intent on killing or hurting the person in front. The Civilian is a specialized blade which renders this motion impossible. It's possibly the best ripper in the world (if you can get the point into the cut), but that's about it.

 

[Buffalohump]

Consider too the Street Beat. Any fixed blade is faster into the fight than a folder.

 

[JD Spydo]

To me this simply makes a great case for bringing back the "Spyderco Matriarch". For those of you who might be newcomers the "Matriarch" is the little, lighter brother of the Civilian. I know at least 4 guys on this Forum and 3 on the Spyderco Forum who've always prefered the Matriarch to the Civilian for many varied reasons.

I hold my Matriarch in the "sacred cow" category of my knife collection. Which means it's not tradeable.

The Matriarch would be my choice. Although I can't find any fault with the Civi or P'Kal either one. But for weight, speed and efficiency I think that the Matriarch is what I would like to see the good brother have for SD

 

[Snagblade]

Sorry to disagree. The straight thrust is one if not the most important move for those holding a sharp thing and intent on killing or hurting the person in front. The Civilian is a specialized blade which renders this motion impossible. It's possibly the best ripper in the world (if you can get the point into the cut), but that's about it.

For the average non-trained person using the Civilian as intended (as a backup to a gun..not a replacement) it's a great tool. It's got 4" of blade in a wicked serrated reverse S so it cuts more like a 6" blade and it's terrifying to look at. Intimidation does not replace skill or luck but it sure adds a "home court" advantage to the person who is less afraid. The Yojimbo/Ronin is perhaps the most efficient modern blade shape of the time, still you need to close the inch gap where the person can cut you and you can't cut them. To get to the point you can cut them (even just a grazing cut) they can put that 1" longer blade an inch into anything on you. If you close to the same point, now they can reach you by 2"...etc.

Those with years and years of knife fighting training will probably not pick a Civilian over an Endura Wave, P'Kal, etc. I think most of these people will still choose the longest blade they can find because the good guys don't always win in real life and nobody likes being an underdog.

Here's a quote from Tazkristi @ Spyderco on the Civilian:

"The Civilian model is the first of several folding knives designed and produced only as a law enforcement back-up defense weapon. This knife is produced in very limited quantities, and will be marketed as a law enforcement back-up defense weapon. The Civilian model is not designed to kill. In fact, it would be difficult to use for that purpose. The shape of the blade does not permit straight penetration. It is designed to “hit and run” in a self-defense situation. This knife is not marketed in traditional Spyderco fashion."

http://www.spyderco.com/forums/showthread.php?t=17168&highlight=civilian

 

[Death Cattle]

this is not an EDC knife, centofante for that. so reply just with self defense in mind. no formal blade training. and spydieguy the p'kal has an emerson feature and those are more EDC knives.

keep in mind, it might not be an EDC knife to this user, but it very well could be for you. its all a matter of opinion. the p'kal is a great knife, but the handle could use some work in my opinion. if you had the civilian on you, there's no doubt you could fuck someone up whether or not your trained in self defense. as others have said, a waved delica or endura would be a couple good options as well. both very easy to carry, and very quickly opened right out of the pocket. if your wanting to decide only between the p'kal and civilian for self defense situations, i would go with the civilian.

 

[Josh K]

For the average non-trained person using the Civilian as intended (as a backup to a gun..not a replacement) it's a great tool. It's got 4" of blade in a wicked serrated reverse S so it cuts more like a 6" blade and it's terrifying to look at. Intimidation does not replace skill or luck but it sure adds a "home court" advantage to the person who is less afraid. The Yojimbo/Ronin is perhaps the most efficient modern blade shape of the time, still you need to close the inch gap where the person can cut you and you can't cut them. To get to the point you can cut them (even just a grazing cut) they can put that 1" longer blade an inch into anything on you. If you close to the same point, now they can reach you by 2"...etc.

Those with years and years of knife fighting training will probably not pick a Civilian over an Endura Wave, P'Kal, etc. I think most of these people will still choose the longest blade they can find because the good guys don't always win in real life and nobody likes being an underdog.

Here's a quote from Tazkristi @ Spyderco on the Civilian:

"The Civilian model is the first of several folding knives designed and produced only as a law enforcement back-up defense weapon. This knife is produced in very limited quantities, and will be marketed as a law enforcement back-up defense weapon. The Civilian model is not designed to kill. In fact, it would be difficult to use for that purpose. The shape of the blade does not permit straight penetration. It is designed to “hit and run” in a self-defense situation. This knife is not marketed in traditional Spyderco fashion."

http://www.spyderco.com/forums/showthread.php?t=17168&highlight=civilian

What Kristi, Paul, and everyone else has said. The P'Kal fits into a fighting style, the Civilian is styleless. My vote goes to the Civilian. :thumbup:

 

[orthogonal1]

What Kristi, Paul, and everyone else has said. The P'Kal fits into a fighting style, the Civilian is styleless. My vote goes to the Civilian. :thumbup:

What in the mentioned statements justifies the assumption of the use of the Civilian in a manner of no particular "style"?

The mere fact the Civilian is pretty useless for stabbing dictates a "style".

 

[Josh K]

What in the mentioned statements justifies the assumption of the use of the Civilian in a manner of no particular "style"?

The mere fact the Civilian is pretty useless for stabbing dictates a "style".

Since when is stabbing a style? Or lack of ability to stab?

 

[canuckBSO]

Not sure where you get that from.
In Canada, where brass knuckles are illegal, plastic knuckles are illegal, brass knuckle-handled knives are illegal, D-guard bowies are illegal, the karambit is LEGAL.
If a place like this doesn't consider them knuckle dusters, where DO they classify them as such?

Not to hijack this thread but as a side note, plastic knuckles and D-guard knives aren't illegal to import into Canada, saying that ANYTHING you carry including (the pen that is mightier than the sword) for self defense is illegal in Canada.

Back to topic. I have the civilian and p'kal. For that matter I also have most of the other knives mentioned on this tread. I usually carry the P'Kal in a hoody pocket. that way my hand is usually fiddling with it when I'm walking around, and with minimal practice you can wave it forward or reverse grip as you pull it out of your jacket.

The Civilian is too sheeple scary, and assuming you survive the encounter harder to explain that you are not really a psychopath.

I suggest the chinook III, great EDC and no one doubts it's SD quality. (James Keating can't be that wrong) This way you only need to carry one knife. and much easier to explain away.

Just to muddy the waters a bit more I would really prefer Sal re-introduced Massad Ayoob best IMHO SD out there.

 

[orthogonal1]

Since when is stabbing a style? Or lack of ability to stab?

Stabbing moves are part of many styles of fighting using edged implements.

If one chooses a tool that is unsuited to a "use", one must adapt a style of usage that does not include that "use".

If you choose a knife for self defense that is not good at stabbing, than one cannot use styles that require stabbing, e.g. closing on your opponent and stabbing under the rib cage or when grappled to the ground, stabbing into the side of the opponents torso.

The concept is the same as practicing using an 8-inch double edged stilleto when all you ever carry is a 2-inch bladed folder. Two different tools, two different styles of use.

 

[LambAndMartyr]

lots of good posts in here. just a little more background, this will be the knife i put in my pocket when walking downtown from hotel to restaurant, or i will go to in case of suspicous guy haninging around my house, etc. (probably some showing off to friends for cool factor, too- duh). as stated earlier, EDC is not a concern for me with this knife.

most likely going with civie, but canuck has me looking at the chinook too now....

 

[Buffalohump]

Chinook is a great choice. But IMO the design has been bettered by another company that begins with an E. The model number is 13.

 

[Josh K]

Chinook is a great choice. But IMO the design has been bettered by another company that begins with an E. The model number is 13.

Taking a stab at what the other company is.

My preference:

Tip down? :thumbup:

S30V > 154CM? :thumbup:

Chisel grind? :thumbdn:

No choil? :thumbdn:

Wave? :thumbdn:

Just my thoughts.

 

[Rob72]

most likely going with civie, but canuck has me looking at the chinook too now....

Having carried both, quite a bit, you might want to rethink that. The Civilian takes significantly more space to open and time to do so. A Civvie requires a snap-draw that places it with a high grip on the heavy handle, in a grip that does not readily favor a snap-cut, or requires thumb-opening with a large blade area facing your torso.

Conversely, the P'Kal comes readily into low or high mid-line very readily, and spends most of it's (very short) opening time flat to your torso. It does take practice...but not all that much.

I had a Civvie when they first came out- and traded it not long after. Opening required more room than an Endura, and it's position when opened was not conducive to fight-stopping (IME). Granted, I understand that Sal has received numerous reports of "spontaneous disengagement" after someone was hit with a Civve, however, I was seeing knock-down muggings/stabbings (Wichita, KS/Houston, TX) in the early '90s, where use of a hammerless J frame, or rapid, hammer-fist stabs were successfully concluding these altercations (for the "good guys").

Now, a waved Civve, that could be drawn in a hooking reverse grip, up an assailant's torso, from navel to chin, or kept in tight, during the draw for similar boxing-style "hooks"... that's why I'm sending STR one (if not both) re-acquired Civilians for a wave mod.

I'm no "blade-guru" or Fuscia-belt ninja, but I've had time in EMS and Corrections, and have some idea what I want a defensive blade to do.

 

[Snagblade]

What in the mentioned statements justifies the assumption of the use of the Civilian in a manner of no particular "style"?

The mere fact the Civilian is pretty useless for stabbing dictates a "style".

I think James Keating might disagree there is no style for the Civilian. Just because it was designed to leave devastating long cuts to whatever it touches doesn't mean that training cant improve on it's ability. Knife fights aren't jousts and not everyone goes "fancy" like some type of Steven Seagal Under Seige action scene. I would assume most "fights" go down in a few swipes and one (or both) people end up running or limping away. Forward grips are not just for novices and this knife is *one* of the kings of any saber/hammer grip. It has over 4" of scary that makes anything bleeds that it touches.

Saying that the Civi is useless for stabbing may be accurate. Saying it's useless to defend one's self would be naive for any "keyboard martial artist". The latter statement I am not assuming you said.

I think we are all grossly overestimating the ability of skin to deflect serrations.

The Civilian is too sheeple scary, and assuming you survive the encounter harder to explain that you are not really a psychopath.

I suggest the chinook III, great EDC and no one doubts it's SD quality. (James Keating can't be that wrong) This way you only need to carry one knife. and much easier to explain away.

Just to muddy the waters a bit more I would really prefer Sal re-introduced Massad Ayoob best IMHO SD out there.

The aftermath is a mucky water situation. Most knives that we are considering next to the Civilian have combat or martial arts roots. Even the Delica/Endura Wave is classified as a "nearly instant deploying knife".

P'Kal = "To Rip". It's waved so you can deploy it instantly in the "Ice pick grip" or edge-in reverse. It's marketed by a group called "Shivworks" where they show on youtube how you can draw it quickly and saw through an attacker's limbs.

If you have a strange knife you will be under scrutiny in court. If you look like you live in a trailer or work on the docks you will be painted in a different light than if you are an attorney going for a jog in the park. If your a narc officer carrying a P'Kal or a LEO carrying a Civilian as a "back up piece" you won't have to worry just like if you are a normal civilian avoiding crappy areas of town which don't require highly-specialized blades or limb destruction martial arts.

For the record, James Keating's Chinook is not that much less "psychopath" than the Civilian. It's a huge blade with a terrifying profile backed by an expert who promotes the "back cut" and is extremely talented but hardly a grassroots pacifist.

 

[canuckBSO]

The aftermath is a mucky water situation. Most knives that we are considering next to the Civilian have combat or martial arts roots. Even the Delica/Endura Wave is classified as a "nearly instant deploying knife".

P'Kal = "To Rip". It's waved so you can deploy it instantly in the "Ice pick grip" or edge-in reverse. It's marketed by a group called "Shivworks" where they show on youtube how you can draw it quickly and saw through an attacker's limbs.

If you have a strange knife you will be under scrutiny in court. If you look like you live in a trailer or work on the docks you will be painted in a different light than if you are an attorney going for a jog in the park. If your a narc officer carrying a P'Kal or a LEO carrying a Civilian as a "back up piece" you won't have to worry just like if you are a normal civilian avoiding crappy areas of town which don't require highly-specialized blades or limb destruction martial arts.

For the record, James Keating's Chinook is not that much less "psychopath" than the Civilian. It's a huge blade with a terrifying profile backed by an expert who promotes the "back cut" and is extremely talented but hardly a grassroots pacifist.

Spoken like a true knife collector, who truly appreciates knives and learns everything he can about them from books mags forums etc. whereas my comments come from much the same person, but who works for a Law Enforcement agency full of people who don't, in a country with some of the dumbest laws regarding self defense outside of the UK. most of the people I work with who enforce those laws don't know who Southnarc, james Keating, or Laci Szabo are. trust me, when I say that the civilian will draw way more attention to you than the Chinook. I know because I've shown them both to my co-workers. guess which one drew the most "is that legal?" comments. most people when they look at the P'Kal they don't "get"it until you show them the proper way to use it. to them it is a funny looking knife with an uncomfortable handle.
Yes I am sure if it goes to court the lawyers will have done their homework on the knife but it may not reach that far if you carry a knife named after a fish or weather pattern.

 

[Crocodilo]

For the average non-trained person using the Civilian as intended (as a backup to a gun..not a replacement) it's a great tool. It's got 4" of blade in a wicked serrated reverse S so it cuts more like a 6" blade and it's terrifying to look at. Intimidation does not replace skill or luck but it sure adds a "home court" advantage to the person who is less afraid. The Yojimbo/Ronin is perhaps the most efficient modern blade shape of the time, still you need to close the inch gap where the person can cut you and you can't cut them. To get to the point you can cut them (even just a grazing cut) they can put that 1" longer blade an inch into anything on you. If you close to the same point, now they can reach you by 2"...etc.

Those with years and years of knife fighting training will probably not pick a Civilian over an Endura Wave, P'Kal, etc. I think most of these people will still choose the longest blade they can find because the good guys don't always win in real life and nobody likes being an underdog.

Here's a quote from Tazkristi @ Spyderco on the Civilian:

"The Civilian model is the first of several folding knives designed and produced only as a law enforcement back-up defense weapon. This knife is produced in very limited quantities, and will be marketed as a law enforcement back-up defense weapon. The Civilian model is not designed to kill. In fact, it would be difficult to use for that purpose. The shape of the blade does not permit straight penetration. It is designed to “hit and run” in a self-defense situation. This knife is not marketed in traditional Spyderco fashion."

http://www.spyderco.com/forums/showthread.php?t=17168&highlight=civilian

Don't take this as me being stubborn, but taking those lines that marketed the Civilian as a deep backup last-resort weapon for a certain LE agency's under-cover operators... those are hardly the "average non-trained" bunch, aren't they? Spyderco never intended the Civ to be a crowd-pleaser.