Civilian or P'Kal

Ouch. Well glad I always disclose myself as such and don't pretend to be anything but an avid collector :D.

The Civilian was designed for you guys (or at least some LEO's). Not for real Civilians. The P'Kal was designed by some Narc officers who decided to re-invent the wheel of inner reverse grip. Again, not a bad thing either. I can't really find much on the style besides a quick draw and some short range jabbing motions. **

I don't carry either knife. The civilian is about .65" longer than my legal carry state allows and even if I could scrimp by with a Matriarch I wouldnt. Why? Not because of the non-thrustable tip...because I don't frequent places needing a rending reverse S people stopper. If I did, I would:

A.) Put in a request for a transfer to another branch or quit my job.
B.) Get a concealed weapon permit and carry a gun so I don't come across like a sociopath killer clown.*

My only point is that a Massad Ayoob or Chinook are both very unconventional blades. The Civilian is one step more extreme but none are red slip joints with tooth pics and tweezers in the side. In the world of "save your life" knives I place my trust in reach. It's even possible that pulling a Civilian would send someone running which would be better than being involved in a knife fight. A slim chance, but I'd rather pay for a serious attorney than a nice coffin.

The P'Kal is a very interesting knife. It doesn't support the style of ANYONE I know and watching a couple Youtube clips doesn't make you a reverse grip/inner blade champ. Owning one will not make you invulnerable like Excalibur or win you points with the ladies. This goes with all highly specialized tactical knives sold to people who have no intent to train or learn the specialized system...it's the same crowd that buys ZR1 Corvettes and never spends time on the track.

If you want a blade to defend yourself the Stretch FRN, Cento4, Adventura, Yojimbo, or various other knives will cut just as good as a P'kal and support the conventional grip. They are boring for locker room banter but oh well, whatever opens mail and cuts my sandwich works. :)

*Edit: I didn't put it together we were talking about Canada. If this is the case I would probably just avoid trouble. It worked for me for decades of non-knife carry.

**: The best reverse grip pecking system that I can find on the web is Piper from South Africa. It's very much along the lines of Shivworks/Southnarc methodology but adds a different depth. I would consider both for a more well-rounded perspective (again, from my own stance of little-to-no training).
 
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Crocodilo said:
Don't take this as me being stubborn, but taking those lines that marketed the Civilian as a deep backup last-resort weapon for a certain LE agency's under-cover operators... those are hardly the "average non-trained" bunch, aren't they? Spyderco never intended the Civ to be a crowd-pleaser.
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Let me rephrase:

Most people who pick up a knife put it in a conventional grip. You can find videos of people with 30 years of training and they still do this so you could say it has a range of experience from 1-30 years. These people are not equal in any way.

A knife that is designed not only for use in the reverse grip but the inward facing reverse grip requires more training. It's a completely different methodology. The civilian also has over an inch of reach.

Truth is in most cases who ever pulls a weapon and gets the first attack has a good chance of winning. The Enter the Dragon duel where people pull out weapons and the nameless black belt dojo students move to the outsides to watch is hardly realistic.

In this contrived reality, I would put my bet on the Civi. In real life, I would carry neither but can see the point of both.
 
Agreed on everything (both posts).

(Just a very small remark: dissuasion from brandishing a weapon or tool may be very nice if it happens, but I wouldn't count on it. If flashing isn't accompanied by a willingness and ability to use, might as well keep it the pocket.)
 
I like winter because I can wear a larger coat. If I'm going somewhere "iffy" I can put my centofante3 or alternative in my pocket and put my hands in there to keep them warm.

Nobody gets freaked out and it's just as fast as a wave with 0% chance of failing.
 
Even the Delica/Endura Wave is classified as a "nearly instant deploying knife".
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Please clarify. By whom is it considered a "nearly instant delploying knife"? In what jurisdiction? What is the significance of this, practical, legal or otherwise?
 
JNewell said:
Please clarify. By whom is it considered a "nearly instant delploying knife"? In what jurisdiction? What is the significance of this, practical, legal or otherwise?
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There is nothing illegal about a waved blade at the moment. It's perfectly within the guidelines of the law.

We were playing the "slippery slope" game where someone tries to paint you as a villain by what knife you have on you. The D4 and D4 wave look slightly different and have different features. I doubt anyone is going to make anything of it.

Point is, get a good lawyer and don't have tatooes with skulls and snakes on your forearms :)
 
My vote is for the P'kal, I love mine. It is almost difficult to draw without a full deploy, and it has a great grip. It is also discrete and easy to carry, it is lightweight and a lot smaller than a civillian.

The civillian is a great knife. It has an intimidation factor that the p'kal doesn't have, and like others have said, it leaves no place for a limb to escape when slashing it.

The decision would probably go to whichever you feel more comfortable quickly deploying and using without thought.
 
Regardig the Delica and Endura (and P'kal): why do these models have trainers, the red-handled versions? It is quite obvious to anyone that picks up the Spyder catalogue that some models are, if not built on purpose, at least acknowledged by Spyderco to be fit to fight.
 
Snagblade said:
I think James Keating might disagree there is no style for the Civilian. Just because it was designed to leave devastating long cuts to whatever it touches doesn't mean that training cant improve on it's ability. Knife fights aren't jousts and not everyone goes "fancy" like some type of Steven Seagal Under Seige action scene. I would assume most "fights" go down in a few swipes and one (or both) people end up running or limping away. Forward grips are not just for novices and this knife is *one* of the kings of any saber/hammer grip. It has over 4" of scary that makes anything bleeds that it touches.

Saying that the Civi is useless for stabbing may be accurate. Saying it's useless to defend one's self would be naive for any "keyboard martial artist". The latter statement I am not assuming you said.

I think we are all grossly overestimating the ability of skin to deflect serrations. :rolleyes:


:D
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You should have quoted JOSH K: "What Kristi, Paul, and everyone else has said. The P'Kal fits into a fighting style, the Civilian is styleless. My vote goes to the Civilian." and "Since when is stabbing a style? Or lack of ability to stab?"

And where in my statements is there any discussion of the uselessness of the Civilian or the affectiveness of serrations.

And, yes, you do assume a lot.
 
shangchi108 said:
Um, so people can train with a model like the one they carry without getting hurt?
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Train what, cutting sandwiches and slicing apples? My point exactly. Train to fight. The very existance of trainers is proof that these models are regarded (at least by the manufacturer and a certain market share) as weapons, as well as tools. Who are we kidding? :)
 
orthogonal1 said:
You should have quoted JOSH K: "What Kristi, Paul, and everyone else has said. The P'Kal fits into a fighting style, the Civilian is styleless. My vote goes to the Civilian." and "Since when is stabbing a style? Or lack of ability to stab?"

And where in my statements is there any discussion of the uselessness of the Civilian or the affectiveness of serrations.

And, yes, you do assume a lot.
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There is no "style" for the Civilian as in: Drunken Monkey, Tiger, Crane, etc. ;)

There is much training based on videos that Mr. Keating put out. I did say multiple times that the Civilian promotes the traditional grips (like the kind you use to hold a steak knife) and the P'Kal supports the unnatural grips (like the kind you use with an ice pick)...did people just skim over this? Hence I support the "style-less weapon for 99.9% of the population".. /beats head against keyboard

I know this thread is getting quite long. People are tired and some are getting frustrated. I'm just playing both sides and refusing to drink the magic P'Kal Kool-Aid right away.

My only point (and the only one I've tried to express this whole time), is that in a world where your comparing two extreme knives designed for tactical duties I would place my bet on reach. It may be frustrating for some that think it looks scary or is awkwardly long but so is a friggin long spear. How many Romans said, "I know the spear has a reach advantage but give me that Gladius! It's more nimble and I can draw it quickly. My life is important to me but that spear looks too scary."

Like MOST martial arts that train about an inch deep and a mile wide I would rather focus on a knife (any one) that doesn't support a detailed fighting system. Why? Because the average person is a keyboard warrior or LEO with more time on the job writing speeding tickets than practicing a P'Kal-inner grip and their speed draws. If you're going to get a tactical MBC knife get one from Michael Janich like the Be-Wharned or Yojimbo because it's held in a traditional grip and cuts like a demon based on geometry which is something that requires less practice. (it also looks like a box cutter)

For you guys that are spending hours on the mat a week with rubber knives and 10+ years of knife training I'm not referring to you. Obviously you have some idea of what your doing and not posing in-front of the mirror drawing your knife and saying, "Are you looking at me?"

In all sincerity, please practice whatever you choose. Nobody is ever "trained". If you choose such a curriculum as the P'Kal PLEASE buy the videos and spend some time on the mat with a trainer of some type sparring. You don't want to screw up the draw, transition, or techniques if bad things happen. This goes with any defense piece.


PS: Yes I assume quite a bit. I assume the general public is uneducated, untrained, and fueled on ego and hype. A false sense of security is more dangerous than most people understand. People don't wear seatbelts so they can increase their frequency of a collision...it's a "worst case" equipment piece that you hopefully never use.
 
Snagblade said:
There is no "style" for the Civilian as in: Drunken Monkey, Tiger, Crane, etc. ;)

There is much training based on videos that Mr. Keating put out. I did say multiple times that the Civilian promotes the traditional grips (like the kind you use to hold a steak knife) and the P'Kal supports the unnatural grips (like the kind you use with an ice pick)...did people just skim over this? Hence I support the "style-less weapon for 99.9% of the population".. /beats head against keyboard

I know this thread is getting quite long. People are tired and some are getting frustrated. I'm just playing both sides and refusing to drink the magic P'Kal Kool-Aid right away.

My only point (and the only one I've tried to express this whole time), is that in a world where your comparing two extreme knives designed for tactical duties I would place my bet on reach. It may be frustrating for some that think it looks scary or is awkwardly long but so is a friggin long spear. How many Romans said, "I know the spear has a reach advantage but give me that Gladius! It's more nimble and I can draw it quickly. My life is important to me but that spear looks too scary."

Like MOST martial arts that train about an inch deep and a mile wide I would rather focus on a knife (any one) that doesn't support a detailed fighting system. Why? Because the average person is a keyboard warrior or LEO with more time on the job writing speeding tickets than practicing a P'Kal-inner grip and their speed draws. If you're going to get a tactical MBC knife get one from Michael Janich like the Be-Wharned or Yojimbo because it's held in a traditional grip and cuts like a demon based on geometry which is something that requires less practice. (it also looks like a box cutter)

For you guys that are spending hours on the mat a week with rubber knives and 10+ years of knife training I'm not referring to you. Obviously you have some idea of what your doing and not posing in-front of the mirror drawing your knife and saying, "Are you looking at me?"

In all sincerity, please practice whatever you choose. Nobody is ever "trained". If you choose such a curriculum as the P'Kal PLEASE buy the videos and spend some time on the mat with a trainer of some type sparring. You don't want to screw up the draw, transition, or techniques if bad things happen. This goes with any defense piece.


PS: Yes I assume quite a bit. I assume the general public is uneducated, untrained, and fueled on ego and hype. A false sense of security is more dangerous than most people understand. People don't wear seatbelts so they can increase their frequency of a collision...it's a "worst case" equipment piece that you hopefully never use.
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/beats head against keyboard/

The Civilian is not good for stabbing moves, as such there is a requirement in use, a "style", that that user not practice such moves nor intend to perform such moves in a self defense situation.

Reverse grips are common, otherwise you wouldn't be able to communicate such by writting "ice pick grip".

Pocket knives aren't spears or gladius length fixed blade knives. Terrible illustration to attempt to get a point accross. Apples and oranges.

And, again you write a bunch of stuff but fail to address the noted issue.

As a reminder: "And where in my statements is there any discussion of the uselessness of the Civilian or the affectiveness of serrations."
 
orthogonal1 said:
/beats head against keyboard/

The Civilian is not good for stabbing moves, as such there is a requirement in use, a "style", that that user not practice such moves nor intend to perform such moves in a self defense situation.

Reverse grips are common, otherwise you wouldn't be able to communicate such by writting "ice pick grip".

Pocket knives aren't spears or gladius length fixed blade knives. Terrible illustration to attempt to get a point accross. Apples and oranges.

And, again you write a bunch of stuff but fail to address the noted issue.

As a reminder: "And where in my statements is there any discussion of the uselessness of the Civilian or the affectiveness of serrations."
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Your inability to correctly spell words is daunting. How can I attempt to defuse your circular reasoning if in each paragraph I'm hit square between the eyes by a red underscore?

Forget it. Whatever logic I use will be translated as an ad hominem. Despite your best wishes, I don't sit back at the keyboard looking to misquote, dishonor and frustrate people. I would rather figure out the issue at hand.

Yes. The reverse grip is very common. The only difference is that 90% of the people that use it are idiots with no formal training but have watched Under Seige multiple times trying to glean knowledge from Steven Seagal. :jerkit: Edge-in Reverse grip is very rare in the world of practitioners. So rare in fact, that most would never buy the knife to begin with because it doesn't go with their 20+ years of training.

This thread will teach me from trying to start a real discussion on Bladeforums.

Maybe this response will make more sense: "Hells ya. The Pkal rocks. Check out my youtube vid where I wave it out of my sweatpants infront of the mirror. I use it with my Para (which is the best!). I bought some camo pants with a karambits pocket. Don't get the Civi becuz you can't stab people with it and whos gonna stop 5 Ninjas in an alley if you cant even stab with it? Lame."
 
Crocodilo said:
Train what, cutting sandwiches and slicing apples? My point exactly. Train to fight.
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You obviously haven't met some of the people I have; some of them NEED a trainer to learn how to open and close the damn thing without slicing their fingers off!:D Sad but true.
They're great toys for kids too.:thumbup:
 
Snagblade said:
Yes. The reverse grip is very common. The only difference is that 90% of the people that use it are idiots with no formal training but have watched Under Seige multiple times trying to glean knowledge from Steven Seagal.
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Many people say the same thing about sabre or hammer grip as well(without reference to Steven Seagal though).
There IS no "best grip"; the grip which shows that your opponent is an idiot is a myth.
 
JD Spydo said:
To me this simply makes a great case for bringing back the "Spyderco Matriarch". For those of you who might be newcomers the "Matriarch" is the little, lighter brother of the Civilian. I know at least 4 guys on this Forum and 3 on the Spyderco Forum who've always prefered the Matriarch to the Civilian for many varied reasons.

I hold my Matriarch in the "sacred cow" category of my knife collection. Which means it's not tradeable.

The Matriarch would be my choice. Although I can't find any fault with the Civi or P'Kal either one. But for weight, speed and efficiency I think that the Matriarch is what I would like to see the good brother have for SD;)
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I'd very much like to see a matriarch sprint run, maybe dark blue or dark green frn. :thumbup:
 
Snagblade said:
Your inability to correctly spell words is daunting. How can I attempt to defuse your circular reasoning if in each paragraph I'm hit square between the eyes by a red underscore?

Forget it. Whatever logic I use will be translated as an ad hominem. Despite your best wishes, I don't sit back at the keyboard looking to misquote, dishonor and frustrate people.
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Your statements are ad hominem. Yeah, we all mispell and I get a giggle out of Latin, too. And whee is this "circular reasoning" you write of?


Snagblade said:
Yes. The reverse grip is very common. The only difference is that 90% of the people that use it are idiots with no formal training but have watched Under Seige multiple times trying to glean knowledge from Steven Seagal. :jerkit: Edge-in Reverse grip is very rare in the world of practitioners. So rare in fact, that most would never buy the knife to begin with because it doesn't go with their 20+ years of training.
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So Mr. Keating promotes a bad technique in your opinion. http://www.paladin-press.com/product/1058/48


Snagblade said:
Maybe this response will make more sense: "Hells ya. The Pkal rocks. Check out my youtube vid where I wave it out of my sweatpants infront of the mirror. I use it with my Para (which is the best!). I bought some camo pants with a karambits pocket. Don't get the Civi becuz you can't stab people with it and whos gonna stop 5 Ninjas in an alley if you cant even stab with it? Lame."
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Actually, that statement appears to show your actual prejudice against the P'Kal knife and the techniques the P'Kal knife is intended to compliment.

And, no, such bigotry makes little sense.
 
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