Classic Folder Brands vs. Civivi and WE - Is it just me?

[kreole]

I've found the Taichung knives to have impeccable quality from Spyderco. Better than Golden or Seki in my experience, after a handful of each.

Taiwanese knives have Seoul.

Wrong country man lol

Seoul's in Korea

 

[iacchus]

Wrong country man lol

Seoul's in Korea

close enough.

There's something to be said for the quality manufacturers in China. And there is a broad range.
Sure, there's things like Ganzo and their ilk. It's a reach to lump them in w/ manufacturers like Reate.
When an American designer wants to bring a custom design to the wider market at a popular price, while still assuring great f&f, and do it all on a relatively short timeline, I can understand the choice.

Something like the Pena X series is hard to claim lack of "soul", warmth, inherent quality, and inspiring design. Those are great little folders.
Yue of Vosteed is doing good work w/ solid designs and quality products. Their Nightshade is a great knife. Sure, it isn't the Lum but it is the only version of that traditional style easily found on the market. I use the hell out of mine. Is fantastic for food prep.

Some of these manufacturers pride themselves in working to change the idea of terrible working conditions as well. I've had some experience w/ manufacturers over there, and while some are terrible and deserve the horror stories we have all heard, some are right there with what you would see in the US (which has its own issues in spots). Credit where it is diue, they should be lauded for trying to make that change.

What I'm saying is that I no longer feel comfortable painting the country w/ as broad a brush as I once did.
If a knifemaker I like decides to use a quality Chinese manufacturer for one of their designs, I will judge it on its quality, not its country of origin at this point.

 

[King of the Cheese]

close enough.

If 1,000 miles is “close” I guess.

 

[jstn]

I really like Civivi for budget knives, as well as a few other budget brands. Nitro V, 14c28n, there are some of my favorite steels, so the use of them on budget knives is great. The higher end stuff from WE and such doesn’t do much for me.

 

[ChrisB507]

As far as I'm concerned...
Every Civivi and WE knife looks like a Chinese knife, made with Chinese made material (to me). Once you've handled/bought/sourced Chinese made products, they all have the same look to them. If you are OK with that look, cool, I'm not.

Lots of Chinese-made knives are from US designers: Hinderer, Emerson, Elishewitz, Applegate, Isham, Zinker, etc., etc. Even smaller custom makers (like Brian Nadeau, Enrique Peña) are sourcing production to companies like Reate.

I don't see a standard look to Chinese knives anymore--or my eyes are not as good as yours. Maybe 10 years ago, I think there was a standard "feel" to a lot of Gerbers and Kershaws--thin liners, sharp edges on the handles, poor finish, rough actions, etc. I don't feel that in current Civivis and WEs.

 

[scdub]

No judgment, but I avoid Chinese products because the Chinese government is currently putting a race of people, Uyghurs, into concentration camps (they actually call them re-education camps, but they are guarded by soldiers who are taught to shoot escapees).

I’m only commenting in hopes that someone might learn about something they weren’t aware of, not trying to interject my politics.

Carry on…

 

[Chocula]

I have been tempted to buy some of the knives mentioned but have not purchased any. I usually think of "value" meaning a knife with lower cost due to lower-end materials and looser tolerances, and I found that I do not like value knives. However, the original poster is getting at knives that have better value because they have similar tolerances and materials to existing products, but at lower cost. Certainly any rational consumer will take the equivalent product at lower cost. If that was all there is to the question of the original post, there would not be any debate here.

The comments about China are challenging the premise of the original question, that the products are equivalent but at lower cost. When people respond "I dont want to buy Chinese," I think it can be interpreted as "I dont actually think it is a good value, because it is supporting an adversary and that has a large cost to me." This is an entirely relevant and acceptable response, albeit poorly communicated in my opinion because the simplified phrasing implies that the people who do buy Chinese are doing something bad.

This talk about knife souls has me thinking there is a version of Shinto just for knives in this forum. I've certainly been "bitten" by some knives more than others...

 

[SwissHeritageCo]

I'm not a fan of the branding on the pins, pivots.. whatever you want to call them.

I'd rather it be on the blade. But yeah, it's shocking the type of quality for money coming out of China these days.

Problem with me is, I cant ever see myself using a $150 pocket knife like the way I use $50 knives. I will forever be a cheap knife abuser, which means... Chinese productions.

Fixed blades are different for me because I'm only ever going to abuse them on wood. $400 is my most expensive fixed custom, $60 is my most expensive edc.

 

[Happy Hippo]

I got in on this thread a few days late and haven't read through it yet except your first post, but I wanted to recommend Kizer knives. I've only owned 2 Civivi's, a really inexpensive plastic handled one, and their Terzuola fixed blade, but from my experience with those two knives, Kizer is even better quality. You're right though, ridiculous quality for the money spent. Kizers ti framelocks are awesome with exceptional fit and finish. They're less expensive knives in micarta and g10 are just as good in the fit and finish department though too which consistently blows my mind.

I did get a CIVIVI Conspirator because one of the knife places said it was their best selling knife in 2002. I wanted to see what all the hubbub was about. It is a little stiff but looks and feels very good. So like I said, I don't necessarily object to non-USA knives but I limited my collection to primarily Bucks.

 

[LimpCroissant]

I did get a CIVIVI Conspirator because one of the knife places said it was their best selling knife in 2002. I wanted to see what all the hubbub was about. It is a little stiff but looks and feels very good. So like I said, I don't necessarily object to non-USA knives but I limited my collection to primarily Bucks.

Oh yea, those Conspirators look pretty sweet with the button lock! It's pretty damn hard to beat a nice Buck though.

 

[Chronovore]

I don’t think a finely finished exterior is 100% indicative of a higher quality knife. Those Bucks you were looking at will outlast the Sencut in real world use.

I was just posting elsewhere about the nicely finished and clean internals on those. Civivi was a game changer on this for budget knives back in 2018 and Sencut has taken that torch from them. They remain exceptionally well-made for budget knives.

Will the Bucks outlast them in "real world use"? Hard to say. Sencut hasn't been around very long but I haven't heard of any wearing out to the point of failure. For that matter, I haven't heard of that happening to a Civivi either. (I've never owned an automatic from Buck but how robust are those mechanisms versus the usual liner or button lock from Civivi or Sencut?)

Another thing to consider is that the $200 automatic from Buck is still running lowly 420HC. Sure, Buck's 420HC is legendary due to an exceptionally good heat treatment but that can still only go so far. Meanwhile, we see a similar situation of miraculous heat treatment on the 9Cr18Mov in Civivi and Sencut knives. Forget 420HC, their 9Cr18Mov generally gets better edge retention than Spyderco's VG-10.

 

[Chronovore]

Talking about folding knives made in China, I'd like to try out a WE knife framelock with >3.7" blade and ti handle for ~$200 with simple and streamlined design (I don't like overly complicated/busy designs with lots of curves like those Begg knives). Does this knife exist?

Most of the WE folders seem to top out at around 3.5". There are a few older models with 4" blades but most of them are either discontinued or cost $300+.

The Beacon is one of my favorite recent designs from WE. It's a titanium frame lock with a 3.5" blade in 20CV for right around $200. The design is definitely "simple and streamlined". It would certainly be my recommendation.

The recent Reiver (pictured below) is around 4" and is closer to $250. It looks cool but the blade is a little thick for my tastes.

 

[sharp_edge]

Most of the WE folders seem to top out at around 3.5". There are a few older models with 4" blades but most of them are either discontinued or cost $300+.

The Beacon is one of my favorite recent designs from WE. It's a titanium frame lock with a 3.5" blade in 20CV for right around $200. The design is definitely "simple and streamlined". It would certainly be my recommendation.

The recent Reiver (pictured below) is around 4" and is closer to $250. It looks cool but the blade is a little thick for my tastes.

Like the beacon but wish it is a bit longer. I have no interest in pocket knives without a good tip.

 

[Ciscocbc]

I have a few Kizer knives and am very happy with them.

 

[Danny Linguini]

At the risk of going too far off topic, I’m gonna throw in my worthless two cents on knives with soul. My take, every knife has a little bit of the soul (or spirit, or Kara, or whatever you want to call it) of its maker. Custom knives have a lot of it, mass produced knives clearly have less. But they all have it. And face it, as knife collectors, you cannot deny that there are some knives that ‘call to you’ more than others. Just a pile of inanimate pieces and parts glued and screwed together, yup. But some of them we make a connection with - whatever that is, it’s what separates those we have to carry whenever we throw on our pants from those that live in the drawer.

 

[rexromic]

Very good quality knives from China but I will stick to my CRK!
Winter is coming
Cheers from Canada!

 

[SwissHeritageCo]

It’s telling that Ray Laconico chose WE to license his designs.

A couple of years ago in these pages these was a mega thread on the MassDrop Laconico Keen reportedly made by WE. I bought two at the original price and I side with the majority on that thread. The quality is outstanding.

I also have an original Laconico EZC for comparison.

I will add that the Monterey Bay Knives Kizer (?)-licensed designs are not as well made in either fit or finish. I have three of those releases.

For my taste, Laconico is the best designer in the business.

I love his designs with the simple block handles. Someone should start a dedicated Laconico thread.

 

[SomebodySomewhere]

I’ve always felt like cars have, maybe not souls, but personalities, at least. Some of them are just bastards, and others are way more fun than their specs would suggest.

Knives have some of that. My Kizer Vigor does that … it just seems better than it has a right to. It seems ready to go.

I’ve had a bunch of Civivis now, and some of them have that spark (e.g., Lumi, Baby Banter), but they’ve all had at least a baseline quality to them that’s genuinely impressive. It’s hard to hit that quality no matter what country you’re making something in.

Take the Perf, e.g., which I won in a contest. It is just a damn solid knife with good midrange steel, an awesome flat grind, and even flashes of style like chamfered jimping on the frame lock. It doesn’t have a lot of “soul,” but I keep not getting rid of it because I can think of situations for it.

I’ve never owned a CRK, though, so maybe I’m missing out. I definitely get that materials and uniqueness could be better with more money.

In general, what $50 gets you these days is pretty amazing. (Buck Spitfire, say … I mean, the thing is bulletproof.)

 

[Lee D]

I’ve always felt like cars have, maybe not souls, but personalities, at least. Some of them are just bastards,

 

[SomebodySomewhere]

Exactly.