Classic Folder Brands vs. Civivi and WE - Is it just me?

[craytab]

I'm not a fan of the branding on the pins, pivots.. whatever you want to call them.

Same. I can't stand the C or the WE thing, or um, whatever that is artisan is putting on their stuff. SOG thinks a lot of their branding is out of place and tacky.

I do find it funny people telling other people how to feel about an object and if it has soul or not. I don't know where I stand on the subject but I know I won't be telling someone it doesn't exists. To me, many of the C, WE, Kizer, Artisan or whatever big Chinese import branded knives kind of feel like they are disjointed parts slapped together in order to be different, yet take advantage of the ti framelock flipper craze. That said, a few models do have it all put together for me, maybe that is soul! And they offer things you can't find in other brands. Button locks, micarta, flipper, thumbstud, decent steel, sub $100. Yup, a few of these imports tick too many boxes for me to not give them a try. Yes there is a sea of funky shit, but some of it is absolutely worth owning, to me anyway.

Meanwhile, we see a similar situation of miraculous heat treatment on the 9Cr18Mov in Civivi and Sencut knives.

Miraculous? Please...

 

[Knives&Lint]

I'm not a fan of the branding on the pins, pivots.. whatever you want to call them.

Same. I can't stand the C or the WE thing, or um, whatever that is artisan is putting on their stuff. SOG thinks a lot of their branding is out of place and tacky.

Since the first time I saw it, I've never been able to unsee this:

 

[craytab]

Since the first time I saw it, I've never been able to unsee this:

View attachment 1988859

Exactly. They even put the damn thing on the elementum fixed blade handle hardware. Freaking ugly as sin.

 

[Chronovore]

Miraculous? Please...

I've seen the Bos heat treatment on Buck's 420HC described in more hyperbolic terms over the years.

The WE treatment on 9Cr18Mov is just as dramatic but they are already starting from a better baseline on edge retention. It can hold a better edge than a lot of the Chinese D2 and even Spyderco's VG-10. Even if not miraculous, it's downright impressive on a $40ish knife.

 

[bdmicarta]

it's downright impressive on a $40ish knife.

There's that number again. I went to Kn_______er.com and the lowest price one they have is $109. For that price I would definitely buy a Spyderco. So I went to ebay. The cheapest one I found on ebay was $57 and it was a pretty small knife. Yes it might be impressive for a $40 knife but is it that impressive on a $109 knife?

 

[ShaiHulud]

I had the praxis and the elementum with wood accents, initially I was interested in other models along they line but they seem to be just about the same with variations in price here and there. But as others noted, nothing magical and quality is a term loosely applied here. I may rely on the knife for light duty, but the smooth scales seem a bit dangerous for any real use. So they were sold, not looking into these brands anymore.

 

[Chronovore]

There's that number again. I went to Kn_______er.com and the lowest price one they have is $109. For that price I would definitely buy a Spyderco. So I went to ebay. The cheapest one I found on ebay was $57 and it was a pretty small knife. Yes it might be impressive for a $40 knife but is it that impressive on a $109 knife?

I think you might be confused. First, Knife Center is an approved dealer so no need to be coy. Second, you are responding to a post that was specifically talking about WE's 9Cr18Mov, which gets an exceptional heat treatment and is used in various knives across their Civivi, Sencut, and Ferrum Forge lines.

Several of those knives have price tags down around $40. For edge retention that's generally better than Spyderco's VG-10, I'd say that's an outstanding value. Would it be as impressive at more than double the price? No but in that price range, we could also ask how much of the S35VN or M390 out there at "58-6HRC" is actually offering better performance. Where Spyderco really starts to shine is once you get into more premium steels where they're the ones doing a better heat treatment.

BTW, here are the Civivi knives under $50 in 9Cr18Mov at Knife Center:

https://www.knifecenter.com/kc_new/store_store.html?usrsearch=9cr18mov&min_price=25&max_price=50&&brand=917

... and here are the Sencut knives in 9Cr18Mov at Knife Center:

https://www.knifecenter.com/kc_new/store_store.html?usrsearch=sencut&steel=9Cr

 

[craytab]

I think you might be confused. First, Knife Center is an approved dealer so no need to be coy. Second, you are responding to a post that was specifically talking about WE's 9Cr18Mov, which gets an exceptional heat treatment and is used in various knives across their Civivi, Sencut, and Ferrum Forge lines.

Several of those knives have price tags down around $40. For edge retention that's generally better than Spyderco's VG-10, I'd say that's an outstanding value. Would it be as impressive at more than double the price? No but in that price range, we could also ask how much of the S35VN or M390 out there at "58-6HRC" is actually offering better performance. Where Spyderco really starts to shine is once you get into more premium steels where they're the ones doing a better heat treatment.

BTW, here are the Civivi knives under $50 in 9Cr18Mov at Knife Center:

https://www.knifecenter.com/kc_new/store_store.html?usrsearch=9cr18mov&min_price=25&max_price=50&&brand=917

... and here are the Sencut knives in 9Cr18Mov at Knife Center:

https://www.knifecenter.com/kc_new/store_store.html?usrsearch=sencut&steel=9Cr

Honestly, $50 is pushing it for a ho-hum knife made in China, even if the steel is magical as you claim. People like to pound their chest about the USA vs China made thing, getting all political about it, which of course isn't allowed here. Let's talk simply about the economics of it though. I expect Chinese knives, that are made with some of the cheapest labor possible and subsidized heavily, to be dirt freaking cheap. They should be. No credit for being what you should. So yes, $50 for a ho-hum designed knife made where and how it is, well, that is too expensive in my book. If I want cheap foreign made, I don't care if that knife can make 50 extra rope cuts in some dumb youboob fake test. I just want a cheap knife and $50 isn't cheap when I can do the same or better from other US companies. And guess what? Jane six pack who is buying that kershaw in the clam shell from wally world doesn't give two craps about the steel either and that is the sub $50 market these knives are geared towards. I just don't see the steel being that important.

These cheap imports need to impress far more than on just steel to price ratio to get my bucks and I think a lot of enthusiast feel the same way.

4", button lock, Micarta, flipper with a perfectly placed thumbstud, 154cm, and sub $100. These things are impressive and worth paying more for IMO. Impress me to get me to pay more, not less. Race to the bottom isn't a great marketing strategy.

 

[V-1]

Zero interest in Chinese made blades. I'm glad others enjoy them, but I have no interest in their designs or materials used. Way more interesting blades coming out of North America, Japan and Western Europe.

 

[ShaiHulud]

I may not be knowledgeable on world wide steel prices and how they fluctuate, but when I'm looking at a Chinese folding knife in micarta with 154cm for under 90 dollars I'm immediately suspicious. It follows the same logic as most 440c from China is not true 440c, so where does 154cm from China stand?

 

[DocJekl]

Honestly, $50 is pushing it for a ho-hum knife made in China, even if the steel is magical as you claim. People like to pound their chest about the USA vs China made thing, getting all political about it, which of course isn't allowed here. Let's talk simply about the economics of it though. I expect Chinese knives, that are made with some of the cheapest labor possible and subsidized heavily, to be dirt freaking cheap. They should be. No credit for being what you should. So yes, $50 for a ho-hum designed knife made where and how it is, well, that is too expensive in my book. If I want cheap foreign made, I don't care if that knife can make 50 extra rope cuts in some dumb youboob fake test. I just want a cheap knife and $50 isn't cheap when I can do the same or better from other US companies. And guess what? Jane six pack who is buying that kershaw in the clam shell from wally world doesn't give two craps about the steel either and that is the sub $50 market these knives are geared towards. I just don't see the steel being that important.

These cheap imports need to impress far more than on just steel to price ratio to get my bucks and I think a lot of enthusiast feel the same way.

4", button lock, Micarta, flipper with a perfectly placed thumbstud, 154cm, and sub $100. These things are impressive and worth paying more for IMO. Impress me to get me to pay more, not less. Race to the bottom isn't a great marketing strategy.

If I recall correctly, Kizer is made in China but imports a lot of their high quality materials from USA and Japan. I have one Kizer Knife, a Gemini flipper, and it seems very nice but not much different from several of my Civivi and Sencut knives in the same price range (under $50-100). My Gemini actually feels quite light for its size, and makes it feel a little "cheaper" when being light-weight that should be a positive in many cases.

As I said before, many of my Chinese made knives feel good when deploying and closing, and have great fit and finish to the eye, rivaling knives made in other countries at similar price points. I'm not talking about gas station knives, but ones that have good fit and finish in the $40-100 price range. But I have some $25 Ganzo FH41S flippers that have amazed me at their fit and finish, feel with use, and overall quality (in appearance at least).

In the $250-300 price range, my WE Vision R feels like a high-end knife to me. And my Demko Ti scale AD20.5 feels like a high-end knife to me. So I was happy to have spent $270 or $300 respectively on these, and if they were disappointing they would have been returned (like some of my Gerber Propel Automatics that had loose safety buttons, and poor fit and finish).

What I have not spoke of, and know little about, are things like durability and longevity, or heat treatmentents, etc with these knives. People are talking about lower HRC due to worse heat treatments vs other country's steel, and some are talking about exceptional heat treatment with certain steels that should not be that good, and to that I have nothing I can contribute.

I may not be knowledgeable on world wide steel prices and how they fluctuate, but when I'm looking at a Chinese folding knife in micarta with 154cm for under 90 dollars I'm immediately suspicious. It follows the same logic as most 440c from China is not true 440c, so where does 154cm from China stand?

Like I was saying above (you posted while I was typing), Kizer reportedly sources materials from USA and Japan, and other places (not sure of the list).

 

[iacchus]

I may not be knowledgeable on world wide steel prices and how they fluctuate, but when I'm looking at a Chinese folding knife in micarta with 154cm for under 90 dollars I'm immediately suspicious. It follows the same logic as most 440c from China is not true 440c, so where does 154cm from China stand?

A youtuber, LuvThemKnives, tested advertised steels and hardness against actual for a slew of knives.
Here's the spreadsheet.

Knife PMI and Rockwell Results

Sheet1 Less Than Range,Within Range,Above Range,✓ Steel Match,X No Match,LOD Limit of Detection Rockwell Hardness ,Steel Type,Ti Grade,Test Date,Steel Element Breakdown,Element information provided by: InterestingEngineering.com Steel,HRC,Brand,Model,Rockwell Advertised,Aimed Hardness,Rockwell T...

docs.google.com

 

[craytab]

I may not be knowledgeable on world wide steel prices and how they fluctuate, but when I'm looking at a Chinese folding knife in micarta with 154cm for under 90 dollars I'm immediately suspicious. It follows the same logic as most 440c from China is not true 440c, so where does 154cm from China stand?

The steel itself doesn't drive the price. The process of working with it does, IE labor and manufacturing cost, all of which are pretty cheap or subsidized in China. From a top import company like Kizer, I wouldn't worry about if the steel is what they say. On some of the lower end import cloner trash like ganzo, I doubt you are getting what you think. I feel $90 for the above knife is about right and a good deal for everything you get, taking into account where it is made.

 

[OrangeBlueOrangeBlue]

For anyone who has never handled a Civivi, take a look at the steel liners on their original models (it's a Shabazz video, so mute if you want). They're skeletonized, chamfered, fully polished, and then electroplated. I'm lucky if the liners on my Golden-made Spydercos are even deburred. Civivi puts as much work into the liners on a $42 knife as some American brands do for an entire knife.

It’s telling that Ray Laconico chose WE to license his designs.

A couple of years ago in these pages these was a mega thread on the MassDrop Laconico Keen reportedly made by WE. I bought two at the original price and I side with the majority on that thread. The quality is outstanding.

I also have an original Laconico EZC for comparison.

I will add that the Monterey Bay Knives Kizer (?)-licensed designs are not as well made in either fit or finish. I have three of those releases.

For $160, the Keen was insane value, and so was the Gent. Drop advertised both as being made by WE.

 

[SwissHeritageCo]

My main attraction to chinese productions is the cost/quality ratio. Strictly on a utility basis, as that's what marks the "soul" of a knife for me (it's utility and function). I only bond with knives in that way, after they reliably perform.

Spyderco used to be the only game in town who had excellent quality control over their chinese produced blades for a great value.

But once you start getting into the $150-200 range for chinese knives I'm out... because personallt I don't see the logic. Different strokes for different folks, but I'm a user and not a collector.

 

[sharp_edge]

I may not be knowledgeable on world wide steel prices and how they fluctuate, but when I'm looking at a Chinese folding knife in micarta with 154cm for under 90 dollars I'm immediately suspicious. It follows the same logic as most 440c from China is not true 440c, so where does 154cm from China stand?

Statements like this are getting pretty old. This topic was discussed extensively quite a few years ago when Reate and Kizer first came into the US market.

 

[ShaiHulud]

Statements like this are getting pretty old. This topic was discussed extensively quite a few years ago when Reate and Kizer first came into the US market.

You're right I apologize I wasn't trying to resurrect those old debates

 

[craytab]

Civivi puts as much work into the liners on a $42 knife as some American brands do for an entire knife.

And they had better, considering the circumstances of their manufacturing. I mean, the benefit to the consumer for all that cheap labor should be more workers giving better attention and quality, or a vastly cheaper knife, hopefully a bit of both.

But once you start getting into the $150-200 range for chinese knives I'm out... because personallt I don't see the logic.

Indeed, and me neither. At least for me, once I get to that price point the value I place on inexpensive manufacture decreases greatly.

 

[K.O.D.]

I own American, Russian, Chinese, Japanese, and Taiwanese knives. Everything from $80 to $600.

While the labor may be cheap, but the materials and fit and finish are top notch. I've "heard" that supposedly, WE, Reate, and Kizer provide better pay and working conditions than most factories.

These companies work with many custom makers, and are the only way to get a reasonably priced one.

However, $250 is about my limit on knives from China. There isn't an appreciable increase in quality or materials to justify it.

 

[Boattale]

The next thing I get from China will be a missile they shoot at us.