Classic Folder Brands vs. Civivi and WE - Is it just me?

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I think you might be confused.
Yes I was looking strictly at WE branded knives. I see that the Sencut and Civivi are quite a bit lower cost. I wonder how CRBJ brand fits in with these.
I would be a potential buyer at the lower price ranges. I do a lot of jeeping and camping in remote places and I'm trying to not carry an expensive PM2 with me. I have a Spyderco Tenacious Sprint that I'm carrying now, and I sometimes find them on ebay for around $35. I've thought about buying another one, not that I don't have enough beater knives to carry. I saw some CRBJ knives that I liked but their steel isn't as good as the WE relatives. Mostly it's that "need a new excuse to buy another knife".

It follows the same logic as most 440c from China is not true 440c, so where does 154cm from China stand?
Where does 154cm stand? It's not true 440c either.
 
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Yes I was looking strictly at WE branded knives. I see that the Sencut and Civivi are quite a bit lower cost. I wonder how CRBJ brand fits in with these.
I would be a potential buyer at the lower price ranges. I do a lot of jeeping and camping in remote places and I'm trying to not carry an expensive PM2 with me. I have a Spyderco Tenacious Sprint that I'm carrying now, and I sometimes find them on ebay for around $35. I've thought about buying another one, not that I don't have enough beater knives to carry. I saw some CRBJ knives that I liked but their steel isn't as good as the WE relatives. Mostly it's that "need a new excuse to buy another knife".


Where does 154cm stand? It's not true 440c either.
CRJB is to artisan cutlery as civiv is to we. Toyota to lexus. Honda to acura. Ive had two cjrb. One had significant enough issues to return, the other is not perfect but acceptable for the price.

Honestly, these cheap imports from the bigger Chinese brands are good beater knives for when you don't want to risk your good stuff. Perfect roll. But so are the value spyderco offerings and you are supporting a great American company then. Civivi, kizer, and crjb win in the variety category though. There is a lot of yuck to wade through (flipper frame/liner lock, d2 galore) but there are some diamonds in the rough.
 
Honestly, $50 is pushing it for a ho-hum knife made in China, even if the steel is magical as you claim. People like to pound their chest about the USA vs China made thing, getting all political about it, which of course isn't allowed here. Let's talk simply about the economics of it though. I expect Chinese knives, that are made with some of the cheapest labor possible and subsidized heavily, to be dirt freaking cheap. They should be. No credit for being what you should. So yes, $50 for a ho-hum designed knife made where and how it is, well, that is too expensive in my book. If I want cheap foreign made, I don't care if that knife can make 50 extra rope cuts in some dumb youboob fake test. I just want a cheap knife and $50 isn't cheap when I can do the same or better from other US companies. And guess what? Jane six pack who is buying that kershaw in the clam shell from wally world doesn't give two craps about the steel either and that is the sub $50 market these knives are geared towards. I just don't see the steel being that important.

These cheap imports need to impress far more than on just steel to price ratio to get my bucks and I think a lot of enthusiast feel the same way.

4", button lock, Micarta, flipper with a perfectly placed thumbstud, 154cm, and sub $100. These things are impressive and worth paying more for IMO. Impress me to get me to pay more, not less. Race to the bottom isn't a great marketing strategy.

So all that and then you post some love for a Chinese-made Kizer that costs $62?

Don't get me wrong. Kizer makes some great knives. They take the time to listen to fans. They regularly release new and interesting stuff. They collaborate with talented designers like Azo Mai and Ray Laconico. They also have relatively good customer service for an overseas manufacturer. Overall, they are one of my favorite companies and I often have a Kizer in my pocket. I'm just not sure where your point is here.

BTW, WE offers button locks on all three tiers. Here is a Sencut button lock in Micarta and that exceptional 9Cr18Mov. The street price is $46.50. This one isn't interesting to me so I haven't tried it. However, I do have experience with the Civivi button locks in 14C28N, Nitro-V, and their 9Cr/10Cr Damascus. I like those very much.

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I wonder how CRBJ brand fits in with these.

In my experience, Artisan/CJRB is nowhere near the same level as WE, Kizer, or Bestech.

I've had at least ten knives from Artisan now. Most of those knives had issues. Three had noticeable lock rock. Two had fit issues where the liners and scales did not line up properly. Two came stuck shut, dry as a bone, and caked with white residue. The pivot on another one had been overtightened and backed off at the factory such that the liners and blade had indentations from the bearings. There was also that fiasco with their proprietary powder steel... I can't recommend them.
 
In my experience, Artisan/CJRB is nowhere near the same level as WE, Kizer, or Bestech.

I've had at least ten knives from Artisan now. Most of those knives had issues. Three had noticeable lock rock. Two had fit issues where the liners and scales did not line up properly. Two came stuck shut, dry as a bone, and caked with white residue. The pivot on another one had been overtightened and backed off at the factory such that the liners and blade had indentations from the bearings. There was also that fiasco with their proprietary powder steel... I can't recommend them.
I have a Ria … love the design, and the Micarta is some of the best I’ve ever seen. But the numerous reports early on of the liner lock failing make me distrust it, even though it seems solid. And I remain very skeptical of the steel … it has seemed fine so far, definitely gets sharp, but I have yet to see any clear evidence of what it actually is.
 
I have a Ria … love the design, and the Micarta is some of the best I’ve ever seen. But the numerous reports early on of the liner lock failing make me distrust it, even though it seems solid. And I remain very skeptical of the steel … it has seemed fine so far, definitely gets sharp, but I have yet to see any clear evidence of what it actually is.
I also have a Maileah … zero issues with that one. Love the blade shape but quality wise seems about what you’d expect for the price. Agreed it’s definitely not a Kizer.
 
Yes I was looking strictly at WE branded knives. I see that the Sencut and Civivi are quite a bit lower cost. I wonder how CRBJ brand fits in with these.
I would be a potential buyer at the lower price ranges. I do a lot of jeeping and camping in remote places and I'm trying to not carry an expensive PM2 with me. I have a Spyderco Tenacious Sprint that I'm carrying now, and I sometimes find them on ebay for around $35. I've thought about buying another one, not that I don't have enough beater knives to carry. I saw some CRBJ knives that I liked but their steel isn't as good as the WE relatives. Mostly it's that "need a new excuse to buy another knife".


Where does 154cm stand? It's not true 440c either.

I may have misread but 440C seems to be a base formula for a couple steels, 440c and mo you get, 154cm, was it? and 440c, cobalt you get n690, I'm open to being corrected if I have it wrong
 
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So all that and then you post some love for a Chinese-made Kizer that costs $62?
Um....the kizer begleiter xl isn't $62.

I'm just not sure where your point is here.
I'm sorry my post confused you. Perhaps you missed this stand alone sentence:

"These cheap imports need to impress far more than on just steel to price ratio to get my bucks and I think a lot of enthusiast feel the same way."

It isn't just a question of materials. They need to do a better job of seeming like they aren't just slapped together knives meant to satisfy the flipper framelock fad. They need some "soul". They need to compete with tech like the button lock. Give me a uniquely big knife. Something! Further, given how cheap we know their labor is, they need to significantly beat US prices or the whole point of buying cheap imports is moot.

BTW, WE offers button locks on all three tiers. Here is a Sencut button lock in Micarta and that exceptional 9Cr18Mov. The street price is $46.50. This one isn't interesting to me so I haven't tried it. However, I do have experience with the Civivi button locks in 14C28N, Nitro-V, and their 9Cr/10Cr Damascus. I like those very much.
I'm well aware of the chinese button lock offerings and you are well aware that I own at least one other. The Begleiter xl offers greater blade length than all the other button locks and also more blade than most of these other chinese import knives, from which ever company. It is quite unique and thus, worth the cost and interest to me.
 
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In my experience, Artisan/CJRB is nowhere near the same level as WE, Kizer, or Bestech.

I've had at least ten knives from Artisan now. Most of those knives had issues.
I'm interested in buying one of these low priced models because some of them look interesting and I want to see what they are like for around $40, and I have some justification for buying an inexpensive knife. So I've been interested to see what everybody is saying about the different brands. Thanks to everyone who has posted information on the brands. I can make up my own mind about what I am willing to buy from what country so I don't want to read about that.
 
I'm interested in buying one of these low priced models because some of them look interesting and I want to see what they are like for around $40, and I have some justification for buying an inexpensive knife. So I've been interested to see what everybody is saying about the different brands. Thanks to everyone who has posted information on the brands. I can make up my own mind about what I am willing to buy from what country so I don't want to read about that.

I've tried lots of inexpensive knives from different brands. Based on those experiences and what I've been able to see, here is a quick partial guide to the Chinese budget knife scene.

Sencut/Civivi, Kizer, and Bestech have been the best overall.

Petrified Fish is great on the low end but tend to leave crisp edges on their scales. Lots of people in the community don't seem to care about that kind of thing so take that based on your own tastes. (I'm prone to sanding or filing scales in search of ergonomic improvement.) I'm not big on Chinese D2 but these guys seem to do one of the better budget heat treatments.

Harnds doesn't release a lot of new models but they continue to offer a few standouts in the "under $50" category. The Talisman remains my favorite.

Trivisa is a new manufacturer who seems to be decent but I only have one of their knives. I'm curious to see where they go.

Ruike and Real Steel both seem to be made by Sanrenmu. Both of those brands tend to be okay. On folders, some people love them and they are notable for offering 14C28N at low prices. My experience with the folders has mostly been "okay". The best things I've seen from either brand have been fixed blades in either 14C28N or 9Cr18Mov*. Sanrenmu also makes a bunch of SAK-like multi-knives that are decent. They show up variously under these brand names and also as the Boker Tech Tools. As a manufacturer, Sanrenmu has made knives for lots of companies including Boker and Spyderco. Their named brand suffers from being made cheaply to sell at low prices, some mall-ninja designs, and a few knives that look suspiciously like Chris Reeve designs.

TwoSun is interesting but I have mixed feelings about them. On the one hand, their machining tends to be excellent. They also work with a bunch of different designers and offer some pretty interesting stuff. On the other hand, there has been some question on the quality of their heat treatments. They tend to go with overly thick blade stock. While some people see detent ramps as a premium feature, they often interrupt my usual closing method for flippers. Also, their entry into this price category is based on their atypical distribution in the US where lots of stuff goes through an authorized dealer on an auction site. They have a new budget brand called SixLeaf but the one example I tried had an issue. (They put an aggressive texture on the blade that the detent ball had to skip over. This had an unfortunate effect on the action.)

CH CH Knives is interesting in that they often make knives for other companies and don't have much in the way of direct distribution over here. They were notable for being the only trustworthy knives distributed by Eafengrow but more on that in a minute. My main issues with CH have been inconsistent quality control, knives leaving the factory with strong-smelling oil, and regular use of permanent thread-locker.

Eafengrow Avoid like the plague. They are a rebranding distributor and infamous for stamping whatever steel they think will sell on pieces of 8Cr13 or 5Cr15.

Artisan/CJRB Too many lemons, partially described in previous post.

QSP Too many lemons.

* Note that 9Cr18Mov in the Civivi and Sencut knives gets an exceptional heat treatment and will perform better than if you get that steel from any other manufacturer listed here. It's otherwise a decent budget steel and generally still a big step up from the best 8Cr13Mov. It's just much better in knives from the WE brands (including the stuff they make for Ferrum Forge).
 
Um....the kizer begleiter xl isn't $62.

My mistake. I was looking at this unique version of the Begleiter XL, listed below on the manufacturer's website. Does the price difference really matter?


The Begleiter xl offers greater blade length than all the other button locks and also more blade than most other of these other chinese import knives, from which ever company. It is quite unique and thus, worth the cost and interest to me.

So if I'm reading you correctly, your main point is about you subjectively liking a particular design enough to overcome your other objections to inexpensive Chinese knives.

You are right on the Begleiter XL having the longest blade length among the current wave of button locks. Even Kizer's new Original XL is only 3.5".

On Chinese knives in general, 3.5" seems pretty common. Longer blades are available but are less common. Blade length for folders from these companies seems to top out at 4". Of course, longer lengths being less common seems like a trend for folding knives in general. I also don't usually view blade length as a major factor in value. At least personally, 3.5" feels like plenty for my EDC needs. I rarely think about going bigger and when I do, something like my Cheburkov Frieze always feels enormous.
 
I've tried lots of inexpensive knives from different brands. Based on those experiences and what I've been able to see, here is a quick partial guide to the Chinese budget knife scene.

Sencut/Civivi, Kizer, and Bestech have been the best overall.

Petrified Fish is great on the low end but tend to leave crisp edges on their scales. Lots of people in the community don't seem to care about that kind of thing so take that based on your own tastes. (I'm prone to sanding or filing scales in search of ergonomic improvement.) I'm not big on Chinese D2 but these guys seem to do one of the better budget heat treatments.

Harnds doesn't release a lot of new models but they continue to offer a few standouts in the "under $50" category. The Talisman remains my favorite.

Trivisa is a new manufacturer who seems to be decent but I only have one of their knives. I'm curious to see where they go.

Ruike and Real Steel both seem to be made by Sanrenmu. Both of those brands tend to be okay. On folders, some people love them and they are notable for offering 14C28N at low prices. My experience with the folders has mostly been "okay". The best things I've seen from either brand have been fixed blades in either 14C28N or 9Cr18Mov*. Sanrenmu also makes a bunch of SAK-like multi-knives that are decent. They show up variously under these brand names and also as the Boker Tech Tools. As a manufacturer, Sanrenmu has made knives for lots of companies including Boker and Spyderco. Their named brand suffers from being made cheaply to sell at low prices, some mall-ninja designs, and a few knives that look suspiciously like Chris Reeve designs.

TwoSun is interesting but I have mixed feelings about them. On the one hand, their machining tends to be excellent. They also work with a bunch of different designers and offer some pretty interesting stuff. On the other hand, there has been some question on the quality of their heat treatments. They tend to go with overly thick blade stock. While some people see detent ramps as a premium feature, they often interrupt my usual closing method for flippers. Also, their entry into this price category is based on their atypical distribution in the US where lots of stuff goes through an authorized dealer on an auction site. They have a new budget brand called SixLeaf but the one example I tried had an issue. (They put an aggressive texture on the blade that the detent ball had to skip over. This had an unfortunate effect on the action.)

CH CH Knives is interesting in that they often make knives for other companies and don't have much in the way of direct distribution over here. They were notable for being the only trustworthy knives distributed by Eafengrow but more on that in a minute. My main issues with CH have been inconsistent quality control, knives leaving the factory with strong-smelling oil, and regular use of permanent thread-locker.

Eafengrow Avoid like the plague. They are a rebranding distributor and infamous for stamping whatever steel they think will sell on pieces of 8Cr13 or 5Cr15.

Artisan/CJRB Too many lemons, partially described in previous post.

QSP Too many lemons.

* Note that 9Cr18Mov in the Civivi and Sencut knives gets an exceptional heat treatment and will perform better than if you get that steel from any other manufacturer listed here. It's otherwise a decent budget steel and generally still a big step up from the best 8Cr13Mov. It's just much better in knives from the WE brands (including the stuff they make for Ferrum Forge).
Why no breakdown of all the ganzo clones you own?

You are dancing around the counterfeit issue here, especially with srm. You forgot to mention their years of ripping off the axis lock before the patent expired.

If you are going to give a synopsis, don't forget the nasty bits people should know. Someone is making all the counterfeit knives coming out of China and there is no doubt some of these companies are involved.
 
So if I'm reading you correctly, your main point is about you subjectively liking a particular design enough to overcome your other objections to inexpensive Chinese knives.
I've said it several times, so yes. And it is not political, so not Chinese specific. I also think lots of enthusiasts feel the same.
 
Why no breakdown of all the ganzo clones you own?

I just didn't talk about Ganzo. I said it was incomplete. You want me to add a note on Ganzo?

Ganzo makes a decent enough knife for the money. Unfortunately, they are infamous for copying designs and design elements from other manufacturers. I'm not going to discuss the quality of those knives here due to forum policy. On the plus side, they launched a line of bargain-priced knives with original designs in Chinese D2 several years ago and that line continues to grow. While not as impressive in the current market, it is worth mentioning that this line of original designs hit the market with $30 knives in D2 before Civivi was a thing.

You are dancing around the counterfeit issue here, especially with srm. You forgot to mention their years of ripping off the axis lock before the patent expired.

If you are going to give a synopsis, don't forget the nasty bits people should know. Someone is making all the counterfeit knives coming out of China and there is no doubt some of these companies are involved.

No, I'm not. I explicitly mentioned the issue with Sanrenmu making a knife that looks suspiciously like a Chris Reeve design and I mentioned it as a negative. The knives in question are not "counterfeits". There are obvious differences between the knives in question and actual Sebenzas, including things like running bearings and being $20 liner locks in G10 and 12C27. They also aren't trying to trick anyone into believing it is a Sebenza. They just aped the design aesthetic. I find that unpleasant but let's be honest about what it is. Let's also remember that the ongoing production of those models is known information. It didn't stop Spyderco from investing in Sanrenmu or trusting Sanrenmu to handle some of their Chinese production.

So let's stop with this kind of nonsense, suggesting that I'm being dishonest, insinuating I'm hiding things, insinuating that some of the companies I mentioned are counterfeiters with zero evidence, etc. You are being intellectually dishonest.
 
I just didn't talk about Ganzo. I said it was incomplete. You want me to add a note on Ganzo?

Ganzo makes a decent enough knife for the money. Unfortunately, they are infamous for copying designs and design elements from other manufacturers. I'm not going to discuss the quality of those knives here due to forum policy. On the plus side, they launched a line of bargain-priced knives with original designs in Chinese D2 several years ago and that line continues to grow. While not as impressive in the current market, it is worth mentioning that this line of original designs hit the market with $30 knives in D2 before Civivi was a thing.



No, I'm not. I explicitly mentioned the issue with Sanrenmu making a knife that looks suspiciously like a Chris Reeve design and I mentioned it as a negative. The knives in question are not "counterfeits". There are obvious differences between the knives in question and actual Sebenzas, including things like running bearings and being $20 liner locks in G10 and 12C27. They also aren't trying to trick anyone into believing it is a Sebenza. They just aped the design aesthetic. I find that unpleasant but let's be honest about what it is. Let's also remember that the ongoing production of those models is known information. It didn't stop Spyderco from investing in Sanrenmu or trusting Sanrenmu to handle some of their Chinese production.

So let's stop with this kind of nonsense, suggesting that I'm being dishonest, insinuating I'm hiding things, insinuating that some of the companies I mentioned are counterfeiters with zero evidence, etc. You are being intellectually dishonest.
:rolleyes:
 
Anyway, back on topic...

I think the future for these import brands should be finding a way to innovate beyond just offering cheap slapped together designs with slightly upgraded budget steels. Their use of the button lock is a great example of how they can accomplish this. No US company is offering a variety of button locks in quality materials, much less at this price point (kershaw does but they are autos). So far I have the cogent and the bigleiter xl button locks and they are priced fairly, well made of acceptable materials, and unique. 90% of the stuff these import companies have flooded the market with aren't those things.

Here's my take on the cogent: https://www.bladeforums.com/threads/civivi-cogent-initial-impressions.1823461/
 
There might be a big pool of people who buy these inexpensive imports, but for many people on this forum I don't see they are attractive. I'm more interested in seeing those good Chinese manufacturers (e.g., Reate) start, continue, or expand their collaborations with famous knife makers on making much more reasonably priced production versions of their much more expensive versions, maybe with Shirogorov or Sinkevich (like ZT with Hinderer). It's tough to justify spending $300+ on a folding knife made in China that does not have a famous knife maker's name associated to it, mainly because their resale value is very low. Heck, even $250 makes me hesitate.
 
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