Classic Folder Brands vs. Civivi and WE - Is it just me?

[tony281sc2]

Then why look at this thread in the first place, or bother to type a response on your Chinese device?

Don’t compare knives to electronics, as if they are the same. Sure it’s a hobby or maybe a passion to some people the way knives are to folks on this forum…
But, unlike electronics, we have PLENTY of good options to choose from, most of them better, If not for the quality, then certainly for any possible warranty issues that could come up, from clips to sharpening, etc… I support brands more than the countries they are made, but I would NEVER spend over $200 for a knife that wasn’t made in the USA (except for Russia, because Shirogorov). The thought seems absurd. I’m a fan of Cold Steel, and I have a few in the $150 range. Awesome knives for the $, maybe some of the very best in fact, and those aren’t made in the USA. IDK what it is, but even WE knives have a cheap feeling to them. Maybe because I like heavier knives…? Idk, but I do know what I like.

 

[Chronovore]

Don’t compare knives to electronics, as if they are the same. Sure it’s a hobby or maybe a passion to some people the way knives are to folks on this forum…
But, unlike electronics, we have PLENTY of good options to choose from, most of them better, If not for the quality, then certainly for any possible warranty issues that could come up, from clips to sharpening, etc… I support brands more than the countries they are made, but I would NEVER spend over $200 for a knife that wasn’t made in the USA (except for Russia, because Shirogorov). The thought seems absurd. I’m a fan of Cold Steel, and I have a few in the $150 range. Awesome knives for the $, maybe some of the very best in fact, and those aren’t made in the USA. IDK what it is, but even WE knives have a cheap feeling to them. Maybe because I like heavier knives…? Idk, but I do know what I like.

Do we really have PLENTY of options? It depends. It isn't "knives in general" but what kinds of knives we are talking about. For modern manual actions, China absolutely dominates the budget pool. People define that realm differently but for modern manual flippers, that dominance extends upwards. The pool is probably 99% Chinese. Manual flippers are my main interest. It would be nice to find a manual flipper I liked from an American manufacturer but off the top of my head, nothing comes to mind.

Now, I mostly carry budget knives and rarely go over $250 on regular carry. Between that preference and the low barrier to purchase on budget knives, I try a lots of budget knives and yes, they are almost entirely Chinese. (My Smock was made in Taiwan.) Going up in value, I too have ended up with Russian knives. My most expensive folders are manual flippers from Cheburkov.

At the end of the day, most of the American knives I buy end up being fixed blades. In that category, you can get a good custom knife from an American maker for the kinds of money you might spend on a folder from WE.

BTW, which WE knives have you tried?

 

[Chronovore]

Gee.. look at that…

Don’t worry, folks.. nothing to see here…

Remind anyone of anything? Naaaah…

You forgot the off-size Rats with Axis locks.

Like I said, Ganzo has a long history of this sort of thing, mashing up different designs, etc. While stealing and copying are not the same thing, it still isn't good.

I've avoided discussing the build quality of these due to forum policy. For some people, the original designs being produced by Ganzo will forever remain fruit of the poisoned tree due to the continued production of models like these. (For some, Ganzo will never be forgiven even if they stopped. Of course, it would be worth wondering for which other companies Ganzo has done OEM work over the years. Since the start of outsourcing, few American companies have been forthcoming about which Chinese manufacturers handle their work.)

 

[DMG]

It all depends on what you want out of a knife. If having a designer's name on it or a certain level of resale value is what matters, I'm sure there are options. Would this upcoming WE designed by Ray Laconico fit the bill?

Since this thread is more focused on budget knives, how about this current edition of a classic Kizer designed by Ray Laconico? I mostly look for other things in knives but I can tell you from experience that the Gemini is a competent EDC knife.

I think working with big designers instead of copying other companies will lend credibility to Chinese makers. And increase quality. I won’t buy a ganzo. I may buy a Laconico Keen, for example.

 

[craytab]

Everyday Commentary in particular has a consistent ranking system, so you could argue with the points being made.

Can never take that guy seriously after the ball washing he gave survive. So no, I won't be arguing with his points. And frankly, rather than respond to links posted to other people's ideas, I like to engage with the people here and their ideas.

 

[bdmicarta]

I've tried lots of inexpensive knives from different brands. Based on those experiences and what I've been able to see, here is a quick partial guide to the Chinese budget knife scene.

Thank you for providing a lot of information, I'll have to do a little bit of research.

There might be a big pool of people who buy these inexpensive imports, but for many people on this forum I don't see they are attractive

I haven't tried one yet and I don't know what my verdict will be. I might decide that it is useful for a low priced knife, or I might not be able to stand looking at it. I'll have to buy one to see.

 

[craytab]

For modern manual actions, China absolutely dominates the budget pool. People define that realm differently but for modern manual flippers, that dominance extends upwards. The pool is probably 99% Chinese. Manual flippers are my main interest. It would be nice to find a manual flipper I liked from an American manufacturer but off the top of my head, nothing comes to mind.

These recent chinese import companies we are discussing in this thread absolutely do not dominate the budget pool. Kershaw, CRKT, SOG, etc are in every big box store in this country. They sell way more knives. IT isn't even close. Now, if you want to talk about budget manual action flippers in D2 made on wednesday nights every other week, or some other select requirement, civanguard kartisan might have a shot at the budget market. Point being, don't over estimate their market share there sport. We can all see your enthusiasm for cheap chinese knives, but slow your roll.

 

[craytab]

You forgot the off-size Rats with Axis locks.

Like I said, Ganzo has a long history of this sort of thing, mashing up different designs, etc. While stealing and copying are not the same thing, it still isn't good.

I've avoided discussing the build quality of these due to forum policy. For some people, the original designs being produced by Ganzo will forever remain fruit of the poisoned tree due to the continued production of models like these. (For some, Ganzo will never be forgiven even if they stopped. Of course, it would be worth wondering for which other companies Ganzo has done OEM work over the years. Since the start of outsourcing, few American companies have been forthcoming about which Chinese manufacturers handle their work.)

 

[SomebodySomewhere]

Can never take that guy seriously after the ball washing he gave survive. So no, I won't be arguing with his points. And frankly, rather than respond to links posted to other people's ideas, I like to engage with the people here and their ideas.

Well, I’m glad you’re being frank. I was concerned you were holding back.

 

[Stockman]

About 6 months ago, curiosity got the better of me - How much improvement had Chinese companies made over the recent years and was the Chinese D2 an improvement over the junk that they previously produced? The last time I handled a Chinese folder, it was very bad, and unsafe, but this was over 10 years ago.
The reviews I read on the Civivi product were overall positive, so I purchased a Civivi Brigand in D2.
For the record, most of my collection ( 40+ pieces ) is either Spyderco or Benchmade, so this is the standard of product that I compare with. My usual work knives that I rotate have been the Para2 in CPM-D2 and an old Yojimbo in S30V.
So how does the Civivi Brigand hold up - well its been in my pocket since it arrived, used every day, the D2 holds it edge very well, strops back to shaving sharp easily, locks up as good as any liner lock that I own, love the flipper aspect, I really can't fault it at the price point or for that matter if it cost twice what I paid for it.
If you can disregard your political views, then these make fine tools and will serve you well.

 

[Insipid Moniker]

I have to admit, the discussion about 'soul' is far too metaphysical for me. Not slamming those that use it as a criteria, just too subjective and unquantifiable for me.

Of course on the other hand, I'm planning to pick up a Sinisys because I think the design is goddamn sexy, which isn't any more objective or quantifiable, so ¯⁠\⁠_⁠(⁠ツ⁠)⁠_⁠/⁠¯.

All I know is that I've been very consistently impressed by the quality I've gotten from CIVIVI, even when directly compared to much more expensive knives from other manufacturers and I dig enough of their designs that I'll probably continue to send at least some money their way.

IMO, CIVIV has developed a design language in their in-house designs that I find very appealing. I've got no use for companies like Ganzo and SRM that make their money aping designs from others, but I don't see any reason to treat the Chinese companies putting out original designs any differently than I treat American, Japanese, Italian, French or German companies. If the quality, price, design and ethics seem to be there, I'm comfortable sending them my money for their bits of metal, polymer and wood with sharp bits.

 

[Chronovore]

These recent chinese import companies we are discussing in this thread absolutely do not dominate the budget pool. Kershaw, CRKT, SOG, etc are in every big box store in this country. They sell way more knives. IT isn't even close. Now, if you want to talk about budget manual action flippers in D2 made on wednesday nights every other week, or some other select requirement, civanguard kartisan might have a shot at the budget market. Point being, don't over estimate their market share there sport. We can all see your enthusiasm for cheap chinese knives, but slow your roll.

Here, I'll number these to help you keep things straight:

1. I specifically mentioned manual actions and many of those are assisted.

2. The bulk of knives from American companies at the Walmart knife counter are made in China.

3. Most of those use worse steel than Chinese D2, from the Kershaw in 8Cr13Mov to Walmart's house brand in 3Cr13. They are generally lower quality than what you'll get directly from the recommended Chinese manufacturers in my partial guide above. Frankly, this kind of stuff doesn't even make it to my table for consideration.

4. Who actually makes the Chinese knives for Kershaw, CRKT, Gerber, Schrade, Buck, etc.? Most of the American or other companies outsourcing to China don't disclose which Chinese manufacturers they use. Sal has confirmed that Sanrenmu makes some but not all of their Chinese stuff. There have been some indicators that Kershaw uses YangJiang Flyer Industrial (the company responsible for making Harnds and Tonife) but that has not been confirmed. It's mostly a mystery and for all you know, Ganzo could be making any number of those knives.

 

[Blade Lab]

I appreciate folders in many price categories. Civivi, Sencut, and WE all make quality knives. I'll admit that I'm confused by the Civivi/Sencut branding. They seem to have similar quality and price points, so...?

Anyway, if you enjoy these sorts of knives, there are other Chinese companies doing similar quality work at similar price points, e.g., Kubey, Kizer, QSP, and CJRB. They generally seem to be moving on from the ubiquitous D2, with a lot of options in 14c28n, 154cm, and Nitro-V.

 

[Triton]

Those Vikings…
I worked in a knife factory, long enough to know, it wasn’t for me! They were artisans. No matter how automated, humans create it. DNA flying around from receiving to shipping.
Charred remains…I did not know that.

I don't think I would take that literally, burnt human is a very poor forge fuel.

 

[Chronovore]

I appreciate folders in many price categories. Civivi, Sencut, and WE all make quality knives. I'll admit that I'm confused by the Civivi/Sencut branding. They seem to have similar quality and price points, so...?

Anyway, if you enjoy these sorts of knives, there are other Chinese companies doing similar quality work at similar price points, e.g., Kubey, Kizer, QSP, and CJRB. They generally seem to be moving on from the ubiquitous D2, with a lot of options in 14c28n, 154cm, and Nitro-V.

I had forgotten about Kubey. They are generally "okay" and occasionally do something I really like. In my experience, their overall quality, fit and finish, etc. is better than QSP or CJRB but not on par with Kizer, Civivi/Sencut, or Bestech.

Civivi was started as WE's budget brand in 2018. They launched with the Praxis, Baklash, and Naja in 9Cr18Mov with a great heat treatment, T8 hardware, deep-carry loop-over clips with flush screws, steel bearings, and clean polished internals for $42.50. It was a real game changer back then. Civivi has since crept up in value. Now they use a lot of 14C28N, Nitro-V, a 9Cr/10Cr Damascus, and occasionally S35VN. Micarta and wood are now common scale offerings. They also went standard with ceramic bearings sometime before 2020.

Sencut was spun off recently to get back to budget basics. Sencut is supposedly using different facilities but the heat treatment seems consistent with the Civivi stuff. It seems that they intended Sencut to be Amazon-only and they had posted some stuff about trying to keep costs down on distribution. However, popularity quickly did away with that. They are now showing up at regular dealers.

Sencut is mostly using 9Cr18Mov and Chinese D2. Those models cost about the same as the original Civivi line-up. They started with ceramic bearings so that's a step up. They tend to leave the factory with clean internals but do not have polished liners. One notable difference is that they don't use a captured pivot and don't have a pivot logo. On the plus side, they are also using 10Cr15CoMov (a close analog of VG-10) in a couple of models. I'm not sure what kind of heat treatment it gets but that feels like a reasonable steel at the $50 level.

 

[SwissHeritageCo]

I had forgotten about Kubey. They are generally "okay" and occasionally do something I really like. In my experience, their overall quality, fit and finish, etc. is better than QSP or CJRB but not on par with Kizer, Civivi/Sencut, or Bestech.

Civivi was started as WE's budget brand in 2018. They launched with the Praxis, Baklash, and Naja in 9Cr18Mov with a great heat treatment, T8 hardware, deep-carry loop-over clips with flush screws, steel bearings, and clean polished internals for $42.50. It was a real game changer back then. Civivi has since crept up in value. Now they use a lot of 14C28N, Nitro-V, a 9Cr/10Cr Damascus, and occasionally S35VN. Micarta and wood are now common scale offerings. They also went standard with ceramic bearings sometime before 2020.

Sencut was spun off recently to get back to budget basics. Sencut is supposedly using different facilities but the heat treatment seems consistent with the Civivi stuff. It seems that they intended Sencut to be Amazon-only and they had posted some stuff about trying to keep costs down on distribution. However, popularity quickly did away with that. They are now showing up at regular dealers.

Sencut is mostly using 9Cr18Mov and Chinese D2. Those models cost about the same as the original Civivi line-up. They started with ceramic bearings so that's a step up. They tend to leave the factory with clean internals but do not have polished liners. One notable difference is that they don't use a captured pivot and don't have a pivot logo. On the plus side, they are also using 10Cr15CoMov (a close analog of VG-10) in a couple of models. I'm not sure what kind of heat treatment it gets but that feels like a reasonable steel at the $50 level.

I'm going to have to check out Sencut now. Do they have any Laconico designs?

People poke at budget Chinese D2 but I've seen ganzos D2 (what I would assume is the most budget of Chinese D2's) composition tested and confirmed on youtube along with it's 62 hrc.

$50 is my ideal price point for EDC carry and actual use/abuse. I feel like I would baby anything over $100.

For the record, I'm currently using budget Chinese D2 and it's been a huge improvement over spydies chinese 8Cr13MoV. That said, I never reprofiled my spyderco's factory grind like I have this budget D2 (convex).

Edit to add, I also really really dislike the WE and Civivi branding on the pivots so Sencut is sounding pretty good.

 

[Chronovore]

I'm going to have to check out Sencut now. Do they have any Laconico designs?

People poke at budget Chinese D2 but I've seen ganzos D2 (what I would assume is the most budget of Chinese D2's) composition tested and confirmed on youtube along with it's 62 hrc.

$50 is my ideal price point for EDC carry and actual use/abuse. I feel like I would baby anything over $100.

For the record, I'm currently using budget Chinese D2 and it's been a huge improvement over spydies chinese 8Cr13MoV. That said, I never reprofiled my spyderco's factory grind like I have this budget D2 (convex).

Edit to add, I also really really dislike the WE and Civivi branding on the pivots so Sencut is sounding pretty good.

I don't know if any of the Sencut designs are collaborations.

Generally, the worst Chinese D2 (excluding garbage with false steel stamps) will hold a better edge than the best 8Cr13Mov. Some people will argue this but a key issue with 8Cr13Mov versus better budget steels is how quickly it transitions from a fine edge to a ho-hum working edge. Overall, I prefer 9Cr18Mov to either of them and that's especially true for the Civivi and Sencut knives.

A key issue with Chinese D2 is that performance can vary a lot, not just from manufacturer to manufacturer but also sometimes from knife to knife. There is speculation and debate as to why but it seems that the vanadium content is more variable in Chinese D2.

 

[craytab]

Here, I'll number these to help you keep things straight:

1. I specifically mentioned manual actions and many of those are assisted.

2. The bulk of knives from American companies at the Walmart knife counter are made in China.

3. Most of those use worse steel than Chinese D2, from the Kershaw in 8Cr13Mov to Walmart's house brand in 3Cr13. They are generally lower quality than what you'll get directly from the recommended Chinese manufacturers in my partial guide above. Frankly, this kind of stuff doesn't even make it to my table for consideration.

4. Who actually makes the Chinese knives for Kershaw, CRKT, Gerber, Schrade, Buck, etc.? Most of the American or other companies outsourcing to China don't disclose which Chinese manufacturers they use. Sal has confirmed that Sanrenmu makes some but not all of their Chinese stuff. There have been some indicators that Kershaw uses YangJiang Flyer Industrial (the company responsible for making Harnds and Tonife) but that has not been confirmed. It's mostly a mystery and for all you know, Ganzo could be making any number of those knives.

Hmm...

Seems to me you need to decide which chinese knives you are going to bat for. In one breath you claim Chinese knives are dominating the market bu then exclude most of the Chinese knives that are actually dominating the market, to only include a very small segment of knives that the companies you are a fan of make? Move the goal posts much?

This thread is about the old guard and the new. You want it to be about something else, just to benefit your argument. So no, these new guard Chinese do not dominate the market, well they might if you move the goal posts enough and set the requirements so specific to only include them in the running.

And you can't on one hand say "well where do you think kershaw makes their knives" as a means to prove your argument that Chinese knives dominate the market, and then proceed to trash their steel choices. That actaully contradicts what you are trying to do, bud.

 

[Chronovore]

Hmm...

Seems to me you need to decide which chinese knives you are going to bat for. In one breath you claim Chinese knives are dominating the market bu then exclude most of the Chinese knives that are actually dominating the market, to only include a very small segment of knives that the companies you are a fan of make? Move the goal posts much?

This thread is about the old guard and the new. You want it to be about something else, just to benefit your argument. So no, these new guard Chinese do not dominate the market, well they might if you move the goal posts enough and set the requirements so specific to only include them in the running.

And you can't on one hand say "well where do you think kershaw makes their knives" as a means to prove your argument that Chinese knives dominate the market, and then proceed to trash their steel choices. That actaully contradicts what you are trying to do, bud.

What kind of mickey mouse nonsense is this? Forget the straw men and categorical shenanigans. I'm not "going to bat" for anything. I don't have any hidden motives and I'm not trying to trick anyone. I'm just sharing information about Chinese knives and trying to enjoy this hobby. You're the one going after me and playing games, as usual.

If anyone has any honest questions that I can answer, I'll be glad to help.

 

[craytab]

What kind of mickey mouse nonsense is this? Forget the straw men and categorical shenanigans. I'm not "going to bat" for anything. I don't have any hidden motives and I'm not trying to trick anyone. I'm just sharing information about Chinese knives and trying to enjoy this hobby. You're the one going after me and playing games, as usual.

If anyone has any honest questions that I can answer, I'll be glad to help.

You're the one moving goal posts to forward your agenda. And now you're here just help others and field questions? Careful folks, this isn't a discussion, but rather a Q&A with an authority figure. Have at it kid, I'm out.