Classic Folder Brands vs. Civivi and WE - Is it just me?

[Quiet]

I just didn't talk about Ganzo. I said it was incomplete. You want me to add a note on Ganzo?

Ganzo makes a decent enough knife for the money. Unfortunately, they are infamous for copying designs and design elements from other manufacturers. I'm not going to discuss the quality of those knives here due to forum policy. On the plus side, they launched a line of bargain-priced knives with original designs in Chinese D2 several years ago and that line continues to grow. While not as impressive in the current market, it is worth mentioning that this line of original designs hit the market with $30 knives in D2 before Civivi was a thing.



No, I'm not. I explicitly mentioned the issue with Sanrenmu making a knife that looks suspiciously like a Chris Reeve design and I mentioned it as a negative. The knives in question are not "counterfeits". There are obvious differences between the knives in question and actual Sebenzas, including things like running bearings and being $20 liner locks in G10 and 12C27. They also aren't trying to trick anyone into believing it is a Sebenza. They just aped the design aesthetic. I find that unpleasant but let's be honest about what it is. Let's also remember that the ongoing production of those models is known information. It didn't stop Spyderco from investing in Sanrenmu or trusting Sanrenmu to handle some of their Chinese production.

So let's stop with this kind of nonsense, suggesting that I'm being dishonest, insinuating I'm hiding things, insinuating that some of the companies I mentioned are counterfeiters with zero evidence, etc. You are being intellectually dishonest.

Criminy, every single time.

 

[Chronovore]

There might be a big pool of people who buy these inexpensive imports, but for many people on this forum I don't see they are attractive. I'm more interested in seeing those good Chinese manufacturers (e.g., Reate) start, continue, or expand their collaborations with famous knife makers on making much more reasonably priced production versions of their much more expensive versions, maybe with Shirogorov or Sinkevich (like ZT with Hinderer). It's tough to justify spending $300+ on a folding knife made in China that does not have a famous knife maker's name associated to it, mainly because their resale value is very low. Heck, even $250 makes me hesitate.

It all depends on what you want out of a knife. If having a designer's name on it or a certain level of resale value is what matters, I'm sure there are options. Would this upcoming WE designed by Ray Laconico fit the bill?

Since this thread is more focused on budget knives, how about this current edition of a classic Kizer designed by Ray Laconico? I mostly look for other things in knives but I can tell you from experience that the Gemini is a competent EDC knife.

 

[sharp_edge]

It all depends on what you want out of a knife. If having a designer's name on it or a certain level of resale value is what matters, I'm sure there are options. Would this upcoming WE designed by Ray Laconico fit the bill?

Since this thread is more focused on budget knives, how about this current edition of a classic Kizer designed by Ray Laconico? I mostly look for other things in knives but I can tell you from experience that the Gemini is a competent EDC knife.

They look good and can be viable options for people who like small EDC folders. Am I correct that the WE will cost $250+ while the Kizer with S35VN will cost $170+? These prices are not crazy though not inexpensive either. I'm more interested in bigger folders, though.

 

[SomebodySomewhere]

Anyway, back on topic...

I think the future for these import brands should be finding a way to innovate beyond just offering cheap slapped together designs with slightly upgraded budget steels. Their use of the button lock is a great example of how they can accomplish this. No US company is offering a variety of button locks in quality materials, much less at this price point (kershaw does but they are autos). So far I have the cogent and the bigleiter xl button locks and they are priced fairly, well made of acceptable materials, and unique. 90% of the stuff these import companies have flooded the market with aren't those things.

Here's my take on the cogent: https://www.bladeforums.com/threads/civivi-cogent-initial-impressions.1823461/

Design is one of the main ways these companies are winning at this price point. Just one example:

“A knife without flaw”:

A Knife Without Flaw: Civivi Lumi Review

For the price, materials, design, and execution, the Civivi Lumi is unquestionably one of the best knives on the market today. See why.

gearjunkie.com

"an ideal EDC and something you will enjoy carrying. Lets breakdown this great and important knife."

Civivi Lumi Review — Everyday Commentary

In baseball there are some pitchers that make their hay throwing triple digit heat. Some, a much smaller handful, instead, find success with impeccable control. The problems is that the line between impeccable control and just throwing slow is a very slim one. Even pitchers that end their career as

www.everydaycommentary.com

This is innovation. For $51. You mention button locks. Or the Baby Banter, which kicks the Dragonfly 2 to the curb in most regards.

Ganzo, sure, whatever. But Civivi and Kizer have been cranking out highly original designs without equivalents in US offerings. There’s basically one US-made knife in this price range that offers good quality and modern functionality, and that’s the Leek, and it’s 20 years old and of questionable legality in many places. The Buck Spitfires are kind of there, I guess.

In some ways, it’s a bit of apples to oranges. US companies basically don’t exist in this segment. (Except insofar as they make the stuff in China themselves a la Byrd, most Kershaws, CRKT, etc. But those are also mostly uninspired designs.)

 

[Chronovore]

They look good and can be viable options for people who like small EDC folders. Am I correct that the WE will cost $250+ while the Kizer with S35VN will cost $170+? These prices are not crazy though not inexpensive either. I'm more interested in bigger folders, though.

BladeHQ lists the WE Evoke for $219 in their "coming soon" section. The flamed version I showed is $227.50.

There are a bunch of different versions of the Gemini. That burlap Micarta version I showed above runs N690 and is only $75. Below is a recent limited edition in S35VN and Raffir. It is $168 if you get it direct from Kizer but a few places have it for $143.

 

[King of the Cheese]

Ganzo is trash, IMO. Plenty of makers like Reate and WE/Civivi making their own designs or teaming up with designers.. taking shortcuts just because you live somewhere and can get away with it should never be acceptable. Giving money to Ganzo is like paying a thief to steal.

 

[King of the Cheese]

Gee.. look at that…

Don’t worry, folks.. nothing to see here…

Remind anyone of anything? Naaaah…

 

[GmpaJim]

I bought a SENCUT button lock to experience a flipper. I have a Civivi liner lock coming to see how risky that is to my fingers. If it isn’t a little dangerous, it’s probably a bore…but enough about women.
I was pleasantly surprised to see the quality of the SENCUT for $52 to my door.
Now I’m wondering, do I really want (or need) to eventually, move to a more expensive knife? How big a move up is it? I’ll figure it out in time.
Most of the upper end knives shown, show no wear. Are they that tough, or are they jewelry?

 

[King of the Cheese]

I bought a SENCUT button lock to experience a flipper. I have a Civivi liner lock coming to see how risky that is to my fingers. If it isn’t a little dangerous, it’s probably a bore…but enough about women.
I was pleasantly surprised to see the quality of the SENCUT for $52 to my door.
Now I’m wondering, do I really want (or need) to eventually, move to a more expensive knife? How big a move up is it? I’ll figure it out in time.
Most of the upper end knives shown, show no wear. Are they that tough, or are they jewelry?

There is a noticeable jump in quality and construction when you go to a WE knife or Reate. As with all things, you get what you pay for. Not too much in the way of “pocket jewelry” coming out of those brands... as the typical format is slabs of titanium/carbon fiber with ball bearings and premium steel.

 

[strategy9]

I gotta say, I do believe that most all knives do have "some" soul, in the sense that the iron and minerals were likely formed in a star some billions of years ago, then pulled from the earth itself, smelt, forged, cut-ground-and/or hammered out, assembled, and passed along to be used by someone... Now granted, that mass produced factory production may not have the same level of "soul" as a one off hand made by a maker, or an old norse/viking steel that used the charred remains of their enemies to add the carbon to the iron, but none the less, on a quantum level all things are connected, even carbon based steel tools and the carbon based primates who make & wield them.

 

[King of the Cheese]

 

[SwissHeritageCo]

Design is one of the main ways these companies are winning at this price point. Just one example:

“A knife without flaw”:

A Knife Without Flaw: Civivi Lumi Review

For the price, materials, design, and execution, the Civivi Lumi is unquestionably one of the best knives on the market today. See why.

gearjunkie.com

"an ideal EDC and something you will enjoy carrying. Lets breakdown this great and important knife."

Civivi Lumi Review — Everyday Commentary

In baseball there are some pitchers that make their hay throwing triple digit heat. Some, a much smaller handful, instead, find success with impeccable control. The problems is that the line between impeccable control and just throwing slow is a very slim one. Even pitchers that end their career as

www.everydaycommentary.com

This is innovation. For $51. You mention button locks. Or the Baby Banter, which kicks the Dragonfly 2 to the curb in most regards.

Ganzo, sure, whatever. But Civivi and Kizer have been cranking out highly original designs without equivalents in US offerings. There’s basically one US-made knife in this price range that offers good quality and modern functionality, and that’s the Leek, and it’s 20 years old and of questionable legality in many places. The Buck Spitfires are kind of there, I guess.

In some ways, it’s a bit of apples to oranges. US companies basically don’t exist in this segment. (Except insofar as they make the stuff in China themselves a la Byrd, most Kershaws, CRKT, etc. But those are also mostly uninspired designs.)

I really wish they made a lumi that was slightly bigger. Beautiful design.

 

[SomebodySomewhere]

I really wish they made a lumi that was slightly bigger. Beautiful design.

They want us to want the Eidolon (which I do).

 

[OrangeBlueOrangeBlue]

I bought a SENCUT button lock to experience a flipper. I have a Civivi liner lock coming to see how risky that is to my fingers. If it isn’t a little dangerous, it’s probably a bore…but enough about women.
I was pleasantly surprised to see the quality of the SENCUT for $52 to my door.
Now I’m wondering, do I really want (or need) to eventually, move to a more expensive knife? How big a move up is it? I’ll figure it out in time.
Most of the upper end knives shown, show no wear. Are they that tough, or are they jewelry?

There is a noticeable jump in quality and construction when you go to a WE knife or Reate. As with all things, you get what you pay for. Not too much in the way of “pocket jewelry” coming out of those brands... as the typical format is slabs of titanium/carbon fiber with ball bearings and premium steel.

Higher end stuff will show wear just like anything else, but is generally not subjected to the same casual abuse as cheaper stuff. My most carried knife is probably a Reate-made Mini Tempest like the one below; it's got some dings in the DLC and scratches on the clip, just like any other knife that's carried and used a lot. It's certainly worthy of being pocket jewelry, but it isn't a safe queen, stashed away instead of being used as a tool. Whenever the clip starts looking too mangy, I'll take it off and redo the satin finish with some 800-grit sandpaper.

 

[SomebodySomewhere]

They want us to want the Eidolon (which I do).

Although, I have to say I don’t worry about using or losing the Lumi because of the price.

 

[GmpaJim]

I gotta say, I do believe that most all knives do have "some" soul, in the sense that the iron and minerals were likely formed in a star some billions of years ago, then pulled from the earth itself, smelt, forged, cut-ground-and/or hammered out, assembled, and passed along to be used by someone... Now granted, that mass produced factory production may not have the same level of "soul" as a one off hand made by a maker, or an old norse/viking steel that used the charred remains of their enemies to add the carbon to the iron, but none the less, on a quantum level all things are connected, even carbon based steel tools and the carbon based primates who make & wield them.

Those Vikings…
I worked in a knife factory, long enough to know, it wasn’t for me! They were artisans. No matter how automated, humans create it. DNA flying around from receiving to shipping.
Charred remains…I did not know that.

 

[cchu518]

WE Dogtooth, Spydercos mini Jess Horn, PM3 LW, Urban, and I had a Delica I'd carry that too plus a Large insingo seb are my go tos. The Dogtooth is the best of the bunch though my absolute fave!

 

[craytab]

Design is one of the main ways these companies are winning at this price point. Just one example:

“A knife without flaw”:

A Knife Without Flaw: Civivi Lumi Review

For the price, materials, design, and execution, the Civivi Lumi is unquestionably one of the best knives on the market today. See why.

gearjunkie.com

"an ideal EDC and something you will enjoy carrying. Lets breakdown this great and important knife."

Civivi Lumi Review — Everyday Commentary

In baseball there are some pitchers that make their hay throwing triple digit heat. Some, a much smaller handful, instead, find success with impeccable control. The problems is that the line between impeccable control and just throwing slow is a very slim one. Even pitchers that end their career as

www.everydaycommentary.com

This is innovation. For $51. You mention button locks. Or the Baby Banter, which kicks the Dragonfly 2 to the curb in most regards.

Ganzo, sure, whatever. But Civivi and Kizer have been cranking out highly original designs without equivalents in US offerings. There’s basically one US-made knife in this price range that offers good quality and modern functionality, and that’s the Leek, and it’s 20 years old and of questionable legality in many places. The Buck Spitfires are kind of there, I guess.

In some ways, it’s a bit of apples to oranges. US companies basically don’t exist in this segment. (Except insofar as they make the stuff in China themselves a la Byrd, most Kershaws, CRKT, etc. But those are also mostly uninspired designs.)

Ugh, those ads I mean reviews...

I guess I don't see the innovation. A tiny frontflipper (fad) with a liner lock and a giant C on it. Not for me.

 

[SomebodySomewhere]

Ugh, those ads I mean reviews...

I guess I don't see the innovation. A tiny frontflipper (fad) with a liner lock and a giant C on it. Not for me.

Everyday Commentary in particular has a consistent ranking system, so you could argue with the points being made. But if a smaller blade or a C is a dealbreaker, then this knife wouldn’t be for you. It is along the lines of what I’m looking for, and it doesn’t exist anywhere else.

 

[SomebodySomewhere]

Everyday Commentary in particular has a consistent ranking system, so you could argue with the points being made. But if a smaller blade or a C is a dealbreaker, then this knife wouldn’t be for you. It is along the lines of what I’m looking for, and it doesn’t exist anywhere else.

But again, that’s only one example. You’ve mentioned a whole category - button locks. But pretty much the entirety of Civivi and Kizer’s catalogs can’t be had from an American brand (or any brand) at anything like that price.