Cliff Stamp

The ONLY valuable testing is our OWN subjective testing, period.

I use other reviews/tests to give me some info, but it is the way I use knives myself that determine if they will work for me.

The argument for knives should be the same as we use for guns ("Guns don't kill people, people kill people.")

By the same token, it is the user's technique and knowledge, rather than the tool used, that make the difference in performance in a given case.

A lot of people will hate me for saying this, but a cheapo kitchen knife can be used almost as easily for, say, wilderness survival, as a top-end blade. If you understand the materials and geometry, and their strengths and weaknesses, then you can adjust your technique to get the most out of any blade.

Bear in mind, I'm saying this as a generalization. It doesn't mean I want to go on an expedition with a cheapo kitchen knife -- but if I was in a plane crash and all that survived was me and the cheap blade, I'd sure be grateful it was there!

Best,

Brian.
 
I’ve received some “heat” here for confronting Cliff’s testing procedures and perceived bias. Some may not think me the best communicator or the most respected commentator here in Bladeforums, but it is good to see people like Jerry Hossom say much more eloquently what I’ve been trying to say for a couple of years.

Thank you, Jerry.
 
Ron, I am merely expressing the same thoughts that are voiced among knifemakers at the Blade or Guild shows, or wherever we gather to talk about what we do, though I've used somewhat less colorful language that is normally employed.
 
This Cliff Stamp phenomenon has been a source of information, entertainment and irritation for me since I registered here a bit over a year ago. I do not have the background to really evaluate the scientific rigor or lack thereof that goes into the testing that he does and reports in his posts here. I have followed these posts of the results of his tests and have found quite a bit of information that I think makes some sense and can use but some that I don't understand and some that just doesn't pass my common-sense test (in particular the wanton destruction testing). So I now read through the test reports and just ignore what I don't understand and is not clarified by either himself or other contributors.

The impression that I am left with from following his posts is that they do provide a lot of information but, information that must be evaluated in light of the experience and opinions of others whose opinions I have come to respect. I do not consider them to be definitive and stand-alone truth.

I have also found it remarkable how difficult it has proven to be for anyone, no matter how knowledgeable and generally respected they may be, to take exception to either him or his work. Each and every such effort of which I am aware has been made to appear an unjust assault by unworthies with impure motives upon his olympus of educated truth and scientific integrity. He has gathered himself up in his dignity and merely gazed aloofly upon them with saint-like patience and forgiveness. I stand prepared to be corrected but that has been my impression.

Cliff seems to have found an impregnable niche here in cutlery cyberspace. I find his manner to be insufferably condescending, but he isn't going away and he isn't going to change, so for me, I am going to continue to glean what pearls of wisdom from him that I can, thank him for his efforts, disregard all that either doesn't make sense or irritates me and otherwise continue to enjoy Blade Forums.

I do see the difficulties, though, that his reviews present to those like Ron and Jerry whose legitimate interests do not allow them to take my own easy way out. Guys, I just wish that I had some suggestion that might help, but I don't.
 
Hell, I would be a lot happier if I knew who Cliff Stamp was. Age, background, etc.? I beginning to wonder if Cliff is his real name.

Simonich keeps claiming he's Jerry Busse and I've heard others call him different names ;) Maybe he's one of those Indians that Rob talks about when he lectures folks on his scientific Chaos Theory?

All I'm saying is whether his reviews are good, bad, ugly, or indifferent it would be nice to put a face and "resume" with the infamous Cliff Stamp. Maybe then I would take him more serious. At least the makers, manufacturers, writers, etc. usually have their bio or other information available.

Jeff
 
I am one of those "NEWBIES" who has read just about every 'review' Cliff has posted. In most that I commented in, I simply stated I was more confused AFTER his tests than I was prior to. I have never allowed his reviews to sway my opinions of certain knives because I simply have no clue what the hell he is talking about and in real life applications the knives seem to hold up great.

The one comment Cliff made a while back that has caused the most confusion and would probably be quite worrisome to those who count on knives for their living was his statement that: The most critical parts of my review that evaluates the performance of a knife is to go outside the intended use of a knife" [paraphrased, not verbatim]. I take that to mean Cliff tests knives at beyond what they have been designed to perform at their best, hence what does his tests prove?

I can only relate it to testing cars. If a curve has a critical speed of 60 miles per hour and I drive a porsche through said curve at 60 miles per hour and comment on how the car "handled like glue", then take the same car and now go 62 miles per hour, I am GOING TO CRASH. Does that therefore make the porsche unsuitable for driving around curves?

I am glad I have never understood the language Cliff speaks and saddened to realize how many knife makers avoid BFC because of their concerns that they may need to defend their products after performing their own testing and then have someone tests their knives at a level they were never designed to perform at.

I have read Cliff take Jerry Hossom to task on several occassions and think the world of Jerry, both as a supreme knife maker and as a supreme human being. Therefore I am biased. I have also read the tests done on the SOG and found them to be pretty left of "impartial". [but I like Ron also]

Concerning Cliff's findings; I have no clue since I have never once understood a freakin thing he has written. I scored a 35/100 in my Physics final in college!!!

Maybe if Cliff were to establish set testing protocols, explain them in layman's terms and then explain the results the same way, I might understand some of it. What I will never understyand is the value of testing a knife beyond it's extreme tolerances. They will break and it does not take a rocket scientist to figure that one out...........Ira
 
Jeff: About a page back in this thread, I asked the same thing. What is his background?? IMHO, once an individual steps beyond the "practical-use" level of knife testing and into the "scientific":rolleyes: :rolleyes: area, with charts and lots of great-sounding numbers, I want to know what the background is.

If someone wants to become an "icon" of the knife community and be accorded that level of awe and respect, lay out your credentials!! Or, in the alternative, be prepared to experience diminished respect.

So far, no credentials have been forthcoming.:confused:
 
Credential-wise on Cliff, I think he should provide that. But in that absence, he is listed here has a graduate student in the Department of Physics and Physical Oceanography at the Memorial University of Newfoundland (that's in very, very far eastern Canada, for the geographically challenged).

Early in this thread, teased that I've often wondered if he is a 12-year-old prodigy trolling here in the fourms. It is thoughts like this that the absence of a "resume" will bring.
 
I am a little surprised by the turn this thread has taken. Since when do we need to go to character assasination to argue on simple factual points. If Cliff claims he observed a certain level of performance, there is nothing keeping any of us from testing that observation and comming back with our own result.

He is providing his observation, and providing details on his methods, we don't have to accept his word for it, and we should not have to take his word at face value. We have enough information to prove or correct his report. I don't care what experience the guy has, or doesn't have; if he makes an observation and nobody bothers to challenge it then don't we all imply our concurrence.

Did anyone correct him when he say the Recondo had an edge angle of 52 degrees? We are not talking about a difficult test here. If you want to discredit the report then discredit his methods and observations and keep the personal attacks out of it.

n2s

(sorry - rant off)
 
Bravo Jerry and Ron.I have known Jerry a few years and the man lives knives.He is always helping new makers and will talk knives till the cows come home.I know he tests his blades in a real world way.While at the recent Guild show,having a smoke break he was discussing Crucible's steels, and their performance with several of us makers.I for one consider him a mentor and friend.
I am a part-time maker and a full-time machinery mechanic.I have approximatly $20,000 in tools to do my job.Each tool is designed for it's intended purpose.I don't use my screwdrivers for prybars nor do I use ratchets for hammers.I test my knives for cutting everyday at work.I also have customers that are hunters,maitenence workers, and others trades people.They use the knives in the real world and I encourage them to tell me likes and dislikes.
I've yet to see a knife that couldn't be broken or the lock that would never fail, but that is only after abuse.I believe that 99.9% of custom knives will never see that kind of abuse.
I don't know Cliff and and rarely look at his reviews,but I have found that the overwhelming majority of makers that do indeed wish to put out a good product and keep customers happy.
Just my $.02, Dave:)
 
Posted by not2sharp:
I am a little surprised by the turn this thread has taken. Since when do we need to go to character assasination to argue on simple factual points. If Cliff claims he observed a certain level of performance, there is nothing keeping any of us from testing that observation and comming back with our own result.[/img]

Actually trying to duplicate his tests for ourselves is more difficult than it sounds. Again, you have somebody claiming to be able to cut and chop, and know just by feel how much force in lbs, ft lbs or inch lbs he is using for multiple chops or cuts. Even more questionable is the ability to claim to know the force used by feel and also the variations, as though one can by feel if they are using 102 ft lbs +/- 2.74. Do you really beleive that?

The other day I was out using a Blackjack Bowie to trim up a tree and some schrubs in our yard. If I were to tell you that each chop was esitimated to be 125 ft lbs +/- 9.55 ft lbs, most people would ask how I measured that for and the variation so precisely. If the only answer I could give was "well, just because of some stuff I had done before" you would say I was full of $hit....and you would be right.

But hey, its his money and his knives I guess, and if he wants to destroy them with absolutely worthless tests, then great, go for it.
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n2s:

Hopefully, nothing I have said has amounted to character assasination. It was certainly not intended as such. As far as I'm concerned, anyone has the right to express an opinion here. I think that is the real value of a public forum.

But--that said--once an individual goes to the extent of publishing vast amounts of "scientific" data and that individual is willing to publically discredit the work of well known makers and manufacturers, at that point, I think we all have the right to be allowed to know that individual's qualifications.

I am not suggesting that if you do not have formal technical qualifications, you cannot publish "scientific" data, but, at least, the audience for that data should have the right to evaluate it in the appropriate context.

I continue to read Cliff's posts with interest. I will do so well into the future. I just think I have the right to place them in context.
 
I confess that my impression was that if a discussion about Cliff could draw all this attention and debate from the assorted heavyweights that have assembled on this thread, that wasn't a bad thing at all. Anything that provokes serious and intelligent debate about knives is a good thing and even the sometimes colourful language isn't that bad - we're all adults here. Well, mostly.

But Mr. Hossom's recent post may have changed my mind. If he's right and Cliff's approach has discouraged people of Mr Hossom's calibre from participating here, that would be a tremendous loss to all of us.
I hope it ain't so
 
Unfortunately it is true, many knifemakers myself included do not contribute here as much as we used to for reasons Jerry stated so well..
Its kinda hard for makers to talk about thier work, while being accused of "Hyping" it..
Certain people who never saw a grinder up close can foist thier opinions and bias' with no fear of being called a HYPER for lack of a better word..
But knife makers arent afforded this level of comfort so many have just decided to find other venues.. DOES THIS MEAN WE ARE AFRAID of having our knives tested? Hell NO! We test, and refine, and work HARD always to make better knives.
I just think many makers have decided they arent going to put up with professional knife destroyers, with an "I can ruin ANY maker I please attitude" They just dont have time for it..
If people want to put stock in what these guys say, thats thier business. Most good makers arent hurting for orders, and could care less what these guys think anyway... It aint nice but its the truth..
 
Originally posted by knifenerd
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Jeff: About a page back in this thread, I asked the same thing. What is his background?? IMHO, once an individual steps beyond the "practical-use" level of knife testing and into the "scientific":rolleyes: :rolleyes: area, with charts and lots of great-sounding numbers, I want to know what the background is.
So, if one doesn't draw charts you don't care what he says? Is it much better to fill the review with "sharp", "scary sharp", "somewhat sharp" termins than provide numbers?

If someone wants to become an "icon" of the knife community and be accorded that level of awe and respect, lay out your credentials!! Or, in the alternative, be prepared to experience diminished respect.
:) Why do you think he wants to be an "icon"? Because he uses numbers and can draw the chart? So far he was asking to make your own conclusions in case you read his reviews.

So far, no credentials have been forthcoming.:confused:
On his webpage, which apparently you have missed.

By the way, what are the credentials "credible" enough for you? PHD in metalurgy? I suspect 99% of knifemakers don't have one either. Not gonna buy a custom knife now because of that?
And on the other hand, we're talking about knife use and testing here.
What credentials would apply here? Woodsman, butcher, trapper... Those could teach a lot me, you, Cliff and the makers how to use a knfie ;)
 
Gator, since you brought up the topic of the Cliff Stamp homepage, I would invite all interested in this thread to check it out. Go to Cliff's profile and click on the homepage.

I was particularly amused by the pieces on the "Comic Book Legal Defense Fund" and the Man-Eating Seals.

Is this just goofy college-kid-type nonsense?? Or does it shed some light on what is really going on here? I have a theory, but will not venture it just yet.

I'd love to hear the comments once the homepage has been looked over by the members here.
 
I don't have the knowledge to join this debate at the level of knife makers and knife industry reps, but I do think Mr. Stamp's information is useful, honest, and more exhaustive than other reviews and tests I have read. If his tests aren't rigorously scientific as many claim, they are still head and shoulders above any others I have read here.
 
Originally posted by knifenerd
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Gator, since you brought up the topic of the Cliff Stamp homepage, I would invite all interested in this thread to check it out. Go to Cliff's profile and click on the homepage.
I was assuming that the parties involved and interested in this thread have already seen that homepage ;) Otherwise it's really strange. I've seen messages like "Cliff's reviews are bad, I never read them". Ironical somewhat, "never read" but still...
 
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