Clip Point 124

BG42EDGE said:
Interesting, Pueblo.

What particular features identify this knife as one of the original 25-50 rather than one made up from a tipped 124?

And what exactly do you mean when you say that Al "shaped" them all himself? That sounds like he made every blade of the 25 or 50 himself by hand.

And you say the blade is exactly 6 and a half inches in length correct?

And were the original 25-50 furnished without sheaths or with regular 124 sheaths or were special sheaths made for them?

Thanks.
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Excellent questions, BG.

I am curious as to how the (now 74-75) the blades used for this production run were all 1972 (possibly late 71) blades, but the knives (50) were all made in 1974-75.

Finally, this was getting into the time that Al was considering retirement (he formally retired in 1979) and the company was just having some difficulties. I can only wonder if Al (who if he had made those knives should have so noted that fact) would have taken the time to make them. Certainly the knowledge of the fact that he personally made them would increase their value.

Telechronos:):):)
 
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Here are my clip point 124
IMG_0743.jpg

And the one with the unmarked sheath.I call her my Biker Knife.
IMG_0746.jpg

IMG_0745.jpg

IMG_0744.jpg
 
Howdy Evil, BG42, Stone Knifeworks, and Telechronos,

All good questions, and ones to which I had the answer. When I spoke to Leroy today, I was surprised to hear Al was directly involved in the manufacture of the knives (or at least, in the profiling of the blades).

Evil Eye - the choil measures 12.6 mm - call it half an inch. Full length of the ricasso from the guard to the edge measures 17.3 mm - about 11/16 of an inch.

Not sure where you want the blade width measured from, but at the guard it measures 36.94 mm - call it 1.45", or just under 1 15/32". The belly of the blade appears slightly convex, though I'm unsure if this the edge swells or if the grind just gives that illusion.


BG42 - in order of your questions:

1. I don't know. This is the first one of these I have ever encountered, and I have never handled a re-profiled 124, so I have no frame of reference for comparison.

2. That is what I understood form Leroy.

3. Affirmative - 6 1/2 inches. That makes it 1/8 of an inch shorter in blade length than my Redhead.

4. Re: sheaths, I have no idea. IMO another good follow-up question for Leroy.


Heath - Thank you for posting those pictures for comparison. IMO the clip point on the stag-handled knife much more closely resembles the execution of the clip point on my 124.


Telechronos - I wish I had better (or any?) answers to your questions. You might consider taking Leroy up on his offer and giving him a call. It sounds as if it would probably be best to address your questions to him directly.
 
Pueblo, I really think the answer to my first question is essential to selling the knife.

Meaning, you need to be able to tell the buyer what specific things that Leroy sees in this knife that make him positive that it's one of the original 25-50 (and not just a skillful copy).

I'm surprised this never came up in your conversations with him. That information would have to be included in a letter of authenticity with a picture of the knife that shows grain or blemishes that can prove it is the knife in question.

Otherwise, the buyer is just taking a shot in the dark (at long range).
 
Pueblo,
First off welcome to the forums, I hope you'll come around often and help us talk knives.
I assume you read my opinion on the knife and I hope your not in any way offended by what I wrote as that was certainly not my intention. Regardless of how the knife came to be, it does look to be in excellent condition. Its hard to say looking at the pictures but I really do believe the work was done at Buck. When it was done is the big question though and this has some bearing on the value I would think. Unfortunately, we have no way of knowing this key bit of information.
 
Joe Houser said:
Pueblo,
First off welcome to the forums, I hope you'll come around often and help us talk knives.
I assume you read my opinion on the knife and I hope your not in any way offended by what I wrote as that was certainly not my intention. Regardless of how the knife came to be, it does look to be in excellent condition. Its hard to say looking at the pictures but I really do believe the work was done at Buck. When it was done is the big question though and this has some bearing on the value I would think. Unfortunately, we have no way of knowing this key bit of information.
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Hi Joe,

Thank you for the welcome. Not offended at all, and as someone who's been collecting edged weapons for almost a quarter century I'm well-versed with the adage that you "buy the sword and not the story."

That being the case, as both a collector and a dealer, provenance always ads something to an item (more so with antique edged weapons in general IMO). Leroy was rather certain in his assertion that this (these) knife (knives) were made by Al during the specified narrow time frame. I think BG42's advice is solid though, and I am going to try to make the time tomorrow to follow-up again with Leroy to see if I can find out more.

To the best of your knowledge, is there anyone there at Buck that might remember anything about these knives? Aside from CJ or Chuck, is there anybody at Buck who was there in El Cajon in the mid-70s?

I took a couple additional photos of the blade today, and will make the time to post them over the next day or so...
 
One additional question which might shed some light on the matter. Has Leroy actually had your knife in his hands and personally examined it? As Joe said, I don't think that we are picking on you. The provenance, however, has a great deal to do with the value of the knife in question. There really is no question that it is a clip point 124. But the questions raised by the assertion that Al himself did the work and the fact that the knife you show is definitely a 1972 knife (tip down stamp, hole in pommel) being used to make 50 such knives in 1974-75 raises issues which I as a collector would want resolved before I would consider it. Can you get a COA from BUCK certifying the knife as being what you represent it to be.

Another interesting variation: while the 1972s had the grey black micarta scales, the scales were of the slab sided type whereas your knife is of the tapered scales. This might indicate that the knife was done at a date later than 1972 out of left over stock.

Telechronos:):):)
 
I know that a clip-point 124 sold on e-Bay sometime last year or so. I think they got about $200 for it, but I can't remember for sure. I don't think it was an early model like this one, but again, memory fails.

I'm sure it was discussed here, but I haven't been able to find that discussion......anybody else remember it?

Maybe somebody who remembers can come up with some better search terms and find it.

Or maybe somebody here won the auction?

As far as this current one on e-Bay goes, I hope that Pueblo's discussion with Leroy can reveal the distinct characteristics that allow it to be identified as one of the "originals." That would be extremely interesting (and a start toward getting some more substantial grounds to decide that the origin of the knife is myth, legend, educated rumor or, indeed, fact).

It would also be interesting to know what criteria Joe uses in his thinking that the work was probably done at Buck.

Is it a gut feeling or did Joe see something specific on that blade that links the unusual blade to Buck?

It does look like the chance of getting any provenance from Buck is getting to be very, very unlikely.

All in all, it's a real nice-looking knife. It is undoubtedly true that it's a rare bird......and you will not see many more like it in this lifetime. The only question is how it came to be created in the first place.
 
BG42EDGE said:
I know that a clip-point 124 sold on e-Bay sometime last year or so. I think they got about $200 for it, but I can't remember for sure. I don't think it was an early model like this one, but again, memory fails.

I'm sure it was discussed here, but I haven't been able to find that discussion......anybody else remember it?

Maybe somebody who remembers can come up with some better search terms and find it.

Or maybe somebody here won the auction?.
Click to expand...

I am aware of one 124 clip point that sold in the past 6 months. I wrote the seller asking if it was a factory job and he replied that it was not done at the factory.

Sorry I don't have the link to that knife but I am sure that the clip point was not done by BUCK.

Telechronos:):):)
 
Telechronos said:
One additional question which might shed some light on the matter. Has Leroy actually had your knife in his hands and personally examined it? As Joe said, I don't think that we are picking on you. The provenance, however, has a great deal to do with the value of the knife in question. There really is no question that it is a clip point 124. But the questions raised by the assertion that Al himself did the work and the fact that the knife you show is definitely a 1972 knife (tip down stamp, hole in pommel) being used to make 50 such knives in 1974-75 raises issues which I as a collector would want resolved before I would consider it. Can you get a COA from BUCK certifying the knife as being what you represent it to be.

Another interesting variation: while the 1972s had the grey black micarta scales, the scales were of the slab sided type whereas your knife is of the tapered scales. This might indicate that the knife was done at a date later than 1972 out of left over stock.

Telechronos:):):)
Click to expand...



The knife was purchased from Leroy, so yes, he has held it in his hand.

That the grip scales are not consistent with those in use in 1972 would be consistent with the date Leroy has provided for the knife's manufacture, at Buck, of 1974-1975.

Regarding the provenance, again, I am comfortable taking Leroy at his word, though as someone who provides authentication and appraisals on antique edged weapons, I can also appreciate the desire of a potential buyer to have the peace of mind that would be provided by a COA. If I were to keep this knife in my own collection, I might follow up on this, but considering the source of my information, I am comfortable standing behind my word.

In the absence of a COA, Leroy's offer to have any serious potential buyers give him a call to vet the knife themselves, combined with Joe's validation that he does believe it was made at Buck should ease the concerns of at least some people involved in the discussion and evaluation of this knife.

Anyway, I'll try to get a couple additional photos of the blade posted either today or this sometime tonight.
 
While you certainly cleared up one issue, one remains for me. If I were to sell it to another collector, I have as proof of the provenance the fact that Leroy told Old Pueblo who told me that...... Thus the need for a COA even though, as a buyer you are satisfied.

Telechronos:):):)
 
humm... this has drawn a good bit of comment ...

i know that there were quite a number of clip 124's made
at buck at different times... both on the record and authorized
tho never recorded any place .. these were jest known to have been done

some off the record and done as 'special' for their own use or for some one ...
and some done by family for personal reasons

i had one once with stag handle made by someone in the custom shop
leroy knew who it was but i dont recall and i dont recall who i sold it to
did not get much for it either...

i believe .pueblos knife was profiled by hand at buck
and i can believe it was done by Al Buck also ..

what leroy says is good enough for me ..
he is a straight upin what he says ..
there is no BS'ing any one by him....
and if he dont know he will tell you so...
i for one also would like to know how leroy id's this as being done by al
i know he has a good memory for steel but was there some thing
any unique thing that he would point to and say ok this is how i know ?

i some times feel that there is not any one thing to id a knife mod as done by buck
only that in the case of my clip point .. it was decided it did not quite have the
Frank-ness to say it was made by frank buck ... (which was why i bought it ..)
it was leroy that said it looked like it was made by Xxxxx in the custom shop
tho he did not recall that single knife..

it is my thought that there was a lot made there back in the day...
that was not in a catalog .. some of which was ok some ...
well not so ok ...
i understood that at one time a worker could get in a LOT of trouble
for finger grooving their own 110 and having it at work!!

so all in all in knowing for sure now that Leroy held and then stated what the knife was ...
i hope pueblo does ok with his knife for sale
and very glad he took the time to investigate and answer every questions he could!!

oh yes welcome to the forum ...
as you can see it can be a ... ... welll....
entertaining conversation .. esp if you... relax .. while reading it !!
 
Telechronos said:
If I were to sell it to another collector, I have as proof of the provenance the fact that Leroy told Old Pueblo who told me that......

Telechronos:):):)
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Well.......not quite.

It's actually more like......Ummmmm, well....I read on the internets wheres Leroy told Old Pueblo that it was the real thing.....

.....and Old Pueblo then wrote on the internets that Leroy said it was the real thing....

.....with the small problem that Old Pueblo couldn't tell us exactly what specific things about it had allowed Old Leroy to positively identify it in the first place......

......and the people over at the Buck company don't seem to know a DAMN thing about all this, and..........and.......

Oh well, looks like a real nice knife n you don't see these too often. How bouts you buys it fer maybe six or seven hunnert dollars anyhoos?

:D
 
110 Dave said:
humm... this has drawn a good bit of comment ...

i know that there were quite a number of clip 124's made
at buck at different times... both on the record and authorized
tho never recorded any place .. these were jest known to have been done

some off the record and done as 'special' for their own use or for some one ...
and some done by family for personal reasons

i had one once with stag handle made by someone in the custom shop
leroy knew who it was but i dont recall and i dont recall who i sold it to
did not get much for it either...

i believe .pueblos knife was profiled by hand at buck
and i can believe it was done by Al Buck also ..

what leroy says is good enough for me ..
he is a straight upin what he says ..
there is no BS'ing any one by him....
and if he dont know he will tell you so...
i for one also would like to know how leroy id's this as being done by al
i know he has a good memory for steel but was there some thing
any unique thing that he would point to and say ok this is how i know ?

i some times feel that there is not any one thing to id a knife mod as done by buck
only that in the case of my clip point .. it was decided it did not quite have the
Frank-ness to say it was made by frank buck ... (which was why i bought it ..)
it was leroy that said it looked like it was made by Xxxxx in the custom shop
tho he did not recall that single knife..

it is my thought that there was a lot made there back in the day...
that was not in a catalog .. some of which was ok some ...
well not so ok ...
i understood that at one time a worker could get in a LOT of trouble
for finger grooving their own 110 and having it at work!!

so all in all in knowing for sure now that Leroy held and then stated what the knife was ...
i hope pueblo does ok with his knife for sale
and very glad he took the time to investigate and answer every questions he could!!

oh yes welcome to the forum ...
as you can see it can be a ... ... welll....
entertaining conversation .. esp if you... relax .. while reading it !!
Click to expand...

Wow Dave, did you run out of juice? I could read and understand everything in your post and never once had to get out the decoder ring!
 
Here's the important part:

"i for one also would like to know how leroy id's this as being done by al
i know he has a good memory for steel but was there some thing
any unique thing that he would point to and say ok this is how i know ?"
Click to expand...

;)
 
I think what most of you are saying is that "providence" is something tangable like a COA or LOA issued by Buck Knives and/or Leroy and any other documentation such as pictures leading one to make an educated decision that the knife is what it is represented to be. The best example is militaria where you want to try and show by documentation that the specific decoration or weapon was owned/used/earned by a specific person at a specific place during a specific conflict or campain in order to enhance the value beyond what intrensic value the item possess. What someone tells you about something without coaberation and you consider as fact is heresay. The rest of the equation is the knife, as unique as it is, still lacks a factory box and sheath and no real providence as to it is being represented as. Please forgive my spelling.
 
Agreed.

In this case, what's the best we can expect?

Since Buck Inc. doesn't appear to know such a knife exists, you do next best thing.

How about a letter from Leroy? It should have his business letterhead and also list his ties and history with Buck.

It should state that he remembers this knife as one of the originals made by Al Buck and also list the specific characteristics that make it possible for him to positively identify it.

Letter would have to include a computer picture (within the text, not separate) of the knife that displays it in a way that it can be identified (unique handle grain or whatever).

I'm puzzled by the the lack of such a letter being included in the auction specifics (as I am by an experienced dealer failing to acquire that letter from Leroy in the first place).

If you want big bucks for a knife, you really need to provide the best evidence available.
 
BG42EDGE said:
If you want big bucks for a knife, you really need to provide the best evidence available.
Click to expand...

Exactly, it baffles me that the seller, who claims to be an experienced edged weapons dealer, is'nt doing exactly what you are suggesting. Especially since he is claiming the knife came from Leroy Remer. Its seems like it would be simple matter to have a LOA for the knife provided by Leroy. Otherwise the knife is just a regular 124 that was modified with a non factory sheath (which is'nt marked either, so how can it also be collectable?) and a non varifiable story. Intrensic value of a 71-75 124 is less than $200, maybe even less without factory sheath, not in the relm of $600-$700.
 
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