Clip Point 124

I think what concerns me is that because of what I consider discrepancies in the story, it takes away my confidence in the validity of the knife being what it is represented to be.
Probably the hardest hurdle for me to get over is the timeframe. That knife was made in about 1972, maybe 1973 which is when we believe you could find 124's with non-serrated edges. It just does not seem likely to me that they held back 50 of these for a couple years, during a time when they could not make knives fast enough for orders.
I see what appears to be a line that goes from the top of the backbone to the edge. This line starts at about the point where the edge begins. Seems kind of odd and the finish itself just seems to "crisp" as compared to other knives I have seen from the same time period.
Let me alter an opinion I wrote in an earier post...Was the clip added to the knife at Buck, or by someone with similar equipment? If I had to guess I would say yes. Am I sure enough of the knifes story to write a certificate, and then ask Chuck Buck to sign the document attesting to its accuracy, no. And I'm not trying to be a butthead about it, just laying the cards on the table.
One last thing I'll add to this already long post, my opinion might change if I had the knife in hand. I might be seeing things that are not there due to how the pictures are coming across. You never know.
 
Plumberdv said:
Wow Dave, did you run out of juice? I could read and understand everything in your post and never once had to get out the decoder ring!
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yep, show nuff run out of it ... drinking dat tax paid stuff .. not as smoooth..
 
i have two 124's that were bought in late 1971 ...
i know as i bought one and a friend bought the other
in another thread i was told these knives with strations and laynard hole
did not come out tell later.. or some thing to that effect..
i can not explain why the discrepency between what every one elses
records say
i KNOW they were bought it in late 1971 at the great lakes naval training center BX
so .. i dont know what to say..
i do know i trust what leroy says.. but yes i agree whit others also that it would be nice to
have some thing in writing and some thing on the knife that says to leroy what it was
again .. i dont know how to justify any discrepancy in folks story's
could be .. . ... well i is missing some shed juce...
and i does need a drink after this
 
110 Dave said:
i have two 124's that were bought in late 1971 ...
i know as i bought one and a friend bought the other
in another thread i was told these knives with strations and laynard hole
did not come out tell later.. or some thing to that effect..
i can not explain why the discrepency between what every one elses
records say
i KNOW they were bought it in late 1971 at the great lakes naval training center BX
so .. i dont know what to say..
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I do know what to say.....and it really wasn't even magic or a warping of the space/time continuum.

Dave, this is a just another good example of how some Buck knives are made before they come out.

Sounds crazy, but it's not.

There is planning and testing going on all the time and some were made to test the process and some got set aside and then some got packed up and shipped out (by accident or whatever) and then the real run of that knife got delayed and took place a couple years later.

And a lucky Seaman Recruit (Seaman Apprentice?) lucked out and got a great knife because of it.

At Buck......anything can happen and it seems there is no end to the fun mysteries that ensue.
 
Colt6731 said:
Exactly, it baffles me that the seller, who claims to be an experienced edged weapons dealer, is'nt doing exactly what you are suggesting
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You are more than welcome to check for yourself to verify we have been active on the 'bay since 1998. I have been actively engaged in selling and horsetrading edged weapons for over a decade and have been collecting them for about a quarter-century. We routinely sell into both private and curatorial collections in the U.S., Australia, and Europe. When I acquire something on a client's "want list" it goes straight to them.

Furthermore, I already agreed that BG42's advice is sound and clearly stated my intent to follow up with it in an earlier post.


Colt6731 said:
Especially since he is claiming the knife came from Leroy Remer.
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"Claiming" the knife came for Leroy? This is somewhat disrespectful considering Leroy has made himself available to verify this and I already explicitly stated as much. You are more than welcome to call him yourself.

I have neither embellished or added to what Leroy has explicitly stated about this knife. Hell, I haven't even amended the listing to include the information - again from Leroy - that Al Buck himself made this knife. Those collectors who are unfamiliar with Leroy's reputation as a knife maker or his 17-year history with Buck may question him at his word. I do not. Nonetheless, I agree it would be nice to have a COA/LOA from Leroy reaffirming what I have already gone on record stating about this knife and as I will see if Leroy would provide some documentation in the form of a LOA to accompany the knife.
 
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Joe Houser said:
I think what concerns me is that because of what I consider discrepancies in the story, it takes away my confidence in the validity of the knife being what it is represented to be.
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Joe,

I really think it might be wise for you to discuss this with Leroy directly. It would seem anything I pass on directly from Leroy risks getting interpreted as hearsay anyway, and if there are indeed 25-50 of these - all made by Al in the same general timeframe - floating out there somewhere, I would think this would be of potential interest to both you and the BCCI. Your thoughts?
 
Might I suggest that since Leroy is at the heart of this discussion and since he sometimes frequents this Forum, you have him simply post his explanation concerning the 50 knives, He should address the issues about the 1972 knives existing in 1975, those specific identifying features that certify this to be one of the 50 production knives made personally by Al Buck and where, and how he came into possession of the knife and why no sheath or box came with this production knife.

Telechronos:):):)
 
Telechronos said:
...you have him simply post his explanation concerning the 50 knives, He should address the issues about the 1972 knives existing in 1975, those specific identifying features that certify this to be one of the 50 production knives made personally by Al Buck and where, and how he came into possession of the knife and why no sheath or box came with this production knife.

Telechronos:):):)
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I have already clearly stated - more than once - that it is my intent to follow up with Leroy to seek additional answers.

Do you have a telephone? Instead of questioning mine - or Leroy's - word an infinitum, why not just give him a call and ask him yourself? Really… how difficult is it to simply give him a call?

In the meantime, once I do speak with Leroy, I will gather as much additional information as I can.
 
The Olde Pueblo said:
"Claiming" the knife came from Leroy? This is somewhat disrespectful considering Leroy has made himself available to verify this and I already explicitly stated as much. You are more than welcome to call him yourself.
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Why is this disrespectful? Your the one who is making the claim! The burdon of proof lies directly on you, not Leroy Remer, unless he decides to weigh in on this issue, which so far he has chosen not to. All you have to do is get the LOA from Leroy and your golden, simple right? BTW, I have a Strider VB I used in combat during my tour in Iraq in 2008-2009, its one of 100 made as a special run for a certain un-named unit and Mick Strider told me anyone can call him to verify. It is for sale for $700, care to trade?:rolleyes: Just kidding!
 
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The Olde Pueblo said:
Do you have a telephone? Instead of questioning mine - or Leroy's - word an infinitum, why not just give him a call and ask him yourself? Really… how difficult is it to simply give him a call?

.
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I don't believe that I have yours or Leroy's word on the items I raised above. I don't question them, I simply want answers. Further I presume that your telephone has a dial just as mine does. Therefore you as seller with an item of considerable value depending upon the answers to the questions asked should have the burden of clearing them up.

If you don't want to---fine. It's no skin off my back

Telechronos:):):)
 
The Olde Pueblo said:
It would seem anything I pass on directly from Leroy risks getting interpreted as hearsay anyway....
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In point of fact, anything you pass on directly from Leroy IS hearsay--that's the definition of hearsay.

For you to fail to get a letter of authentication in the first place is, as I said before, profoundly puzzling.

Your job is to provide solid information--NOT to just say, "Call Leroy."

Your listing description on e-Bay and your responses here on this knife are unprofessional and I say that in hopes that you will take it as constructive criticism and do better in the future.

It's for your own good.
 
I thought I'd add my 2 cents worth. If I were considering buying the 124, I would want a LOA or something and that has nothing to do with whether or not I believe Leroy (or the seller). I'm not into selling any of my knives but someday I'm sure that my son or grandsons will be wanting to move them. Without something in writing to prove the authenticity to them and any potential buyer, it would be just a very cool modified 124 that could have been modified by any number of people.

For instance, I have a beautiful elk handled 110 with a mirror polished blade that I bought from a BCCI officer who has close ties to the Buck family. It's a beauty but came only with a standard 110 box and paperwork. The knife was 1 of 9 that was "built" at Buck by a member of the Buck family. While I had no doubt that the story was true (confirmed by the "builder" in question"), there was nothing to distinguish it from any number of other after market rehandle jobs.

Although it's a beauty, it's true value to anyone else down the road would depend on authentication that it was factory built and "built" by who it was built by. I was lucky in that I recieved a LOA signed by Chuck Buck authenticating it. I feel that the same holds true for the 124.
 
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BG42EDGE said:
For you to fail to get a letter of authentication in the first place is, as I said before, profoundly puzzling.

Your job is to provide solid information--NOT to just say, "Call Leroy."

Your listing description on e-Bay and your responses here on this knife are unprofessional and I say that in hopes that you will take it as constructive criticism and do better in the future.
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Unbelievable.

I agreed the answers to your questions re: the particular features of the knife that provide Leroy with the certainty with which he has described the knife are important and clearly stated my intent to contact him to seek these answers.

I agreed that it would be better to get a hold of an LOA form Leroy to this effect and - again - stated my intent to do so.

I have openly and honestly engaged you in discussion about the knife, and Leroy's information about its history. I have provided solid information. The fact that you question the legitimacy and source of the information has nothing to do with my conduct of the sale or representation of the knife. It is simply a reflection of different expectations.

Before posting in this thread, I first called Leroy to make sure I clearly understood his information about the knife. Leroy was kind enough to make himself available to further vet this information, and in good faith I passed on this information.

My decision to "fail to get a letter of authentication in the first place" is a reflection of the faith I place in Leroy's word - something at least one other member shares - and not a reflection on any lack of professionalism.

In short, I have done nothing other then to conduct myself in an open and honest matter.

Yet regardless of my best efforts to address your concerns about the knife, you make defamatory statements about my conduct. How the hell you can consider my conduct as "unprofessional" is beyond me. :thumbdn:
 
That's easy.

A professional would have gotten authentication.

A professional would not tell people to call somebody else to authenticate his knife.

A professional would not write an e-Bay description based on hearsay.

A professional would not say, "Up for auction is as we understand it the single rarest variant of the Buck 124 ever made."

That phrase "as we understand it" opens the issue to interpretation and throws doubt on your whole "Leroy" claim and leaves you a way out if the buyer "understands" Leroy in a different way.
.
An honest description would have to advise potential buyers that Buck Knives Inc. refuses to authenticate the knife.

Is that enough for you?

Again, this criticism and advice will help both you and your buyers now and in the future.

Maybe it might actually be something you should consider instead of blustering and defending.
 
The Olde Pueblo said:
Thanks... Truth be told, if it's slow to go, I'm okay with that as knives like this have a tendency to find their way from the "inventory" pile to the "collection" pile.
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Is'nt that the way it usually goes, at least with me it is! Now, here is a question I am curious about, how did you determine the value on the 124 you have for auction? I would appreciate it if you would share the process of assigning the value to this knife.
 
Colt6731 said:
Is'nt that the way it usually goes, at least with me it is! Now, here is a question I am curious about, how did you determine the value on the 124 you have for auction? I would appreciate it if you would share the process of assigning the value to this knife.
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Howdy Colt,

1. Leroy's description of the knife would as I understand it make this 124 more scarce than any other variant (e.g., white micarta). Without even taking into consideration Leroy's attribution to Al Buck's hand in the knife's creation, scarcity alone - along with the collectibility of the 122/124 - would make this more valuable than the the white micarta.

2. Anybody who routinely sells on ePay knows of their userous fees (though truth be told, you pay the same +/-10% if you sell in a brick-and-mortar establishment such as an antique mall). Combined with the fact that the 'bay will now be submitting a 1099 if you cross certain thresholds with regards to sales volume and revenue, we have to plan for another +/-30% in taxes. Subtract this off our gross, include our cost of acquisition and the soft cost of our the time involved in selling it, and include the requirement that we a) make enough money to cover all these expenses and b) enough to allow us to acquire more merchandise, and you arrive at a ballpark figure of what we need to sell the knife for.

3. Lastly, there is the fact that I like this knife, don't know when or if I'll ever see another such example, and as such there is a certain intrinsic value I assign to the knife that in addition to meeting the criteria outlined in #2 above would have to make me feel good about parting with it.

In summary, scarcity, costs, and personal attachment all drive the price of our merchandise, though the third reason is admittedly less formulaic than the first two.
 
Okay… I just got off the phone after a lengthy conversation with Leroy. Again, he has been very helpful in discussing this knife, and based on our conversation, I have to believe he has been following this thread.

In summary, and I think in no small part due to the controversial nature of the claims regarding this knife, I received a revised description that differs from the earlier claims in the following regards:

1. He said that as per Joe's observation the knife's original production likely dates to 1972.

2. He said the knife was brought into Buck either in 1974 or 1975 (most likely 1975) and re-shaped at that time, during which time Leroy worked in Buck's customer service.

3. His original attribution to Al's involvement in the reworking of the knife is/was due to a comparison of style of similar knives made during the same time period.

4. He cannot cite any exact features to substantiate his claim other than his firsthand knowledge that came from working at Buck during this time.

5. Despite the similarities that originally led him to believe Al was directly involved, the SOP at the time was for Al to bring the knives in to the guys in customer service and hand them off to whomever, and Leroy is no longer certain of Al's direct involvement in the reshaping of the knife.

6. The original claim of "25-50" has been modified and clarified to refer to the approximate number of 124s that were similarly brought back in to Buck for similar re-profiling.

7. Leroy is willing to provide a LOA stating the knife was made at Buck and dating it to the aforementioned time frame.

We have been the public representative of this knife and as such I accept full responsibility for the misunderstanding resulting from the original description. While such a retracement is somewhat embarrassing, I think credit goes to this thread for making such a stink about the original description that it necessitated not one, but two follow-up calls requesting additional information. For this I am grateful, as I personally take great pride in the lengths we go to to describe everything we sell as accurately as possible, and in light of this new information, we will obviously be changing the description to reflect this and adjusting the price accordingly.

Lastly, for any interested parties, Leroy is going to provide me with the correct sheath for this knife when I visit his shop next week.
 
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