CNC and knife production

kitkat52 said:
What do you think?
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There probably aren't any quality knives mass produced today that don't use CNC of some type. It's a good way to do things, so companies and custom makers use it.

So in the 80's when companies used fine blanked stampings is what you're referring to? CNC wasn't widely used then, if at all.

You can have a custom knife made entirely with CNC if it is made to your specifications. A handmade knife is something else, and there is much debate on what exactly that is.
 
kitkat52 said:
What do you think?
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I think I'm in awe of RJ Martin flippers! I just got off his site and wow is all I can say. That Overkill you have there is mind boggling fast in flipping open and a large knife too. He has it listed as a custom.

I want one and the price isn't out of line for what you get IMO. Do you still own it?

What's your take on it? Custom, Mid-Tech, Production? I saw his thread that you posted too. If he makes 6 or 8 at a time using CNC are they still customs after he assembles them and puts his name on the box?
 
There is no doubt in my mind that RJ Martins are custom knives, so much so that RJ won the Best Tactical Folder award 4 times. Remember that the blades are all hand ground by him one at a time. His grinds are superb and his flippers are among the very best out there.
 
There is a vast difference between a modern day CNC machine and a milling machine.I am looking at a group of Boker knives that are pre 1960.They were not made with CNC machines.They were made with milling machines.You can make thousands of knives in a week or less with milling machines.What I am asking are any pocket knives made today without computer CNC machines today?
 
It is a question that has evolved from all that has been posted on this thread.It is part new and part old.
 
kitkat52 said:
There is a vast difference between a modern day CNC machine and a milling machine.I am looking at a group of Boker knives that are pre 1960.They were not made with CNC machines.They were made with milling machines.You can make thousands of knives in a week or less with milling machines.What I am asking are any pocket knives made today without computer CNC machines today?
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Computer computer numerical controlled machines?

That's like people saying HIV virus, (Human immunodeficiency virus virus). ;)
 
I don't mind on production knives but for a custom I prefer the knife made by hand or at least hand ground.
 
I agree, if it is not hand ground it is not a custom.
On the other hand, hand ground (or hand forged) does not necessarily mean custom, see Randalls for example.
 
It seems to me that some of us are a little unclear on the differences between Custom, Handmade, and Production.

A custom knife is one made to the buyers unique specifications. It could, in theory, be entirely handmade, partially handmade and partially CNC'd, or entirely CNC'd. The important thing here is that it be unique, and made to order.

A handmade knife, on the other hand, is entirely made by hand at every step. It doesn't rely upon computer driven machinery at any step of production. A handmade knife may be either custom or part of a series of virtually identical (production) knives.

A production knife, nowadays, is almost certainly CNC driven for most of the production steps, other than assembly — and possibly that, too. A production knife like this is part of a production run of many identical knives, with virtually no variation from knife to knife.

Certainly there is some overlap between the groups, but, basically, these are the categories as I understand them.

Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, but these groupings seem to be pretty basic to me.
 
dawsonbob said:
It seems to me that some of us are a little unclear on the differences between Custom, Handmade, and Production.

A custom knife is one made to the buyers unique specifications. It could, in theory, be entirely handmade, partially handmade and partially CNC'd, or entirely CNC'd. The important thing here is that it be unique, and made to order.

A handmade knife, on the other hand, is entirely made by hand at every step. It doesn't rely upon computer driven machinery at any step of production. A handmade knife may be either custom or part of a series of virtually identical (production) knives.

A production knife, nowadays, is almost certainly CNC driven for most of the production steps, other than assembly — and possibly that, too. A production knife like this is part of a production run of many identical knives, with virtually no variation from knife to knife.

Certainly there is some overlap between the groups, but, basically, these are the categories as I understand them.

Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, but these groupings seem to be pretty basic to me.
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I disagree with these assesments of "custom" and "handmade" but you can keep your own definitions as long as you don't profess them like gospel.
 
I disagree, too. Today, most successful makers build knives to their own specs and collectors consider themselves lucky to grab one when they find it. I am not saying that those makers do not build to the customer's spec from time to time, but a significant share of their production is not to fill specific orders (for example, show knives, dealer knives, or knives listed on forums etc.). Also, you may be able to request some variation of a specific model (say blade finish, scale material or clip design) but very few makers will create a knife from scratch just for one customer.
 
Only in the knife world will certain things happen. For instance, the use of bead blasting as a final finish. Or the redefining of custom to mean handmade and handmade to mean custom.

If I call a maker and tell him/her I want a 1095 blade, 3 inches long, shaped according to the included sketch, with a handle made from titanium and also shaped according to the sketch, that's a custom knife. It doesn't matter how he/she shapes the pieces.

Tom O'dell's definition of custom has led many down the wrong path.

KitKat52, you'd have to look pretty hard to find a production knife made in the last 10 years not made with some form of CNC, especially if you want one made in the US. Chinese and Pakistan made knives may be a good place to start, since I've seen some with hand filed pins, folding knife kicks, hand fitted guards, etc. There are a lot of individual makers that still do things without CNC. Take a look in the makers forums.
 
Josh K said:
I disagree with these assesments of "custom" and "handmade" but you can keep your own definitions as long as you don't profess them like gospel.
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Gospel? From me? Not a chance. One thing I don't do, is pontificate; I'm wrong far too often for that, and I know it. I don't have all the answers, and certainly wouldn't want anyone to think that what I put forward is anything hard and fast. It was just my attempt to get some clarity, and you might have noticed that I said to correct me if I'm wrong.

Obviously, you disagree with my definitions, and that's fine, but how would you categorize the differences? I think that it would be a good thing to have some consensus on this.
 
dawsonbob said:
Gospel? From me? Not a chance. One thing I don't do, is pontificate; I'm wrong far too often for that, and I know it. I don't have all the answers, and certainly wouldn't want anyone to think that what I put forward is anything hard and fast. It was just my attempt to get some clarity, and you might have noticed that I said to correct me if I'm wrong.

Obviously, you disagree with my definitions, and that's fine, but how would you categorize the differences? I think that it would be a good thing to have some consensus on this.
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The difference is up to the maker and the buyer.

A very good example case is the recent 1 of 2 embellished CRK Umnumzaans. Hand ground blades, embellished handles, different steel, lots of hand finishing, and there was a fight over whether this was a "production" knife (ala embellished Sebenzas) or a "custom" knife.

Sure there are things that are very cut and dry, although they are few and far between. A Spyderco Endura is not a "custom" or "handmade" knife.

"Handmade" does also not mean entirely made by hand. This has been hashed and rehashed in the custom forum, so I would point you there for those that enjoy long winded technical breakdowns.

Ask Kirby Lambert, Les Voorhies, Todd Begg, or R.J. Martin if they consider their knives "handmade" and / or "custom."
 
LorenzoL said:
I disagree, too. Today, most successful makers build knives to their own specs and collectors consider themselves lucky to grab one when they find it. I am not saying that those makers do not build to the customer's spec from time to time, but a significant share of their production is not to fill specific orders (for example, show knives, dealer knives, or knives listed on forums etc.). Also, you may be able to request some variation of a specific model (say blade finish, scale material or clip design) but very few makers will create a knife from scratch just for one customer.
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I agree wholeheartedly that some of the most successful makers do exactly as you're describing, but those makers can't be classified as custom makers: they make limited run production knives.

Certainly there are a number of fine knife makers that will create single knives from scratch to a customer's design, and often for very reasonable prices, too. Hang out in W&SS for awhile to see lots of examples of this.

Then there are makers of production knives that produce hundreds, or thousands, of identical knives: no custom whatsoever. You may be able to order with different scale colors, but that's not exactly custom.
 
me2 said:
Only in the knife world will certain things happen. For instance, the use of bead blasting as a final finish. Or the redefining of custom to mean handmade and handmade to mean custom.

If I call a maker and tell him/her I want a 1095 blade, 3 inches long, shaped according to the included sketch, with a handle made from titanium and also shaped according to the sketch, that's a custom knife. It doesn't matter how he/she shapes the pieces.

Tom O'dell's definition of custom has led many down the wrong path.

KitKat52, you'd have to look pretty hard to find a production knife made in the last 10 years not made with some form of CNC, especially if you want one made in the US. Chinese and Pakistan made knives may be a good place to start, since I've seen some with hand filed pins, folding knife kicks, hand fitted guards, etc. There are a lot of individual makers that still do things without CNC. Take a look in the makers forums.
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Bingo.
 
Josh K said:
The difference is up to the maker and the buyer.

A very good example case is the recent 1 of 2 embellished CRK Umnumzaans. Hand ground blades, embellished handles, different steel, lots of hand finishing, and there was a fight over whether this was a "production" knife (ala embellished Sebenzas) or a "custom" knife.

Sure there are things that are very cut and dry, although they are few and far between. A Spyderco Endura is not a "custom" or "handmade" knife.

"Handmade" does also not mean entirely made by hand. This has been hashed and rehashed in the custom forum, so I would point you there for those that enjoy long winded technical breakdowns.

Ask Kirby Lambert, Les Voorhies, Todd Begg, or R.J. Martin if they consider their knives "handmade" and / or "custom."
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As I said earlier, there is certainly a lot of room for overlap. Does hand grinding and finishing move a knife made to an existing pattern from "production" to "handmade"? Beats the heck out of me. I'm not into pedantic categorization of all the possible nuances, I'm just looking for a way to define some general categories. In the knife making world there are going to be almost infinite variations that might move things from one category to another: we all know that.

I am by no means trying to be contentious, just trying to get a handle on some labels. Long nit-picky things don't work well for me, especially when there's football on TV.
 
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