CNC and knife production

I think we should consider modern custom knife makers more like artists, they do not just follow instructions anymore but focus on creating original and innovative designs.
A perfect example of this is Gustavo Cecchini (GTC), his knives are true works of art.
The W&SS forum is more about traditional makers, I have zero interest in those (no disrespect, just a matter of personal taste).
 
LorenzoL said:
I think we should consider modern custom knife makers more like artists, they do not just follow instructions anymore but focus on creating original and innovative designs.
A perfect example of this is Gustavo Cecchini (GTC), his knives are true works of art.
The W&SS forum is more about traditional makers, I have zero interest in those (no disrespect, just a matter of personal taste).
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I think you're right; many of the custom makers are producing knives that really are pieces of art. Some of the knives they produce are absolutely gorgeous, but I'd be afraid to ever use them, even if I could afford them.

Yes, many of the knives on W&SS are more along traditional lines; they're usually produced to be users.

I can appreciate both. I am simply in awe of the art some makers produce, but I like the users that are made to fulfill specific functions, too.
 
dawsonbob said:
It seems to me that some of us are a little unclear on the differences between Custom, Handmade, and Production.

A custom knife is one made to the buyers unique specifications. It could, in theory, be entirely handmade, partially handmade and partially CNC'd, or entirely CNC'd. The important thing here is that it be unique, and made to order.

A handmade knife, on the other hand, is entirely made by hand at every step. It doesn't rely upon computer driven machinery at any step of production. A handmade knife may be either custom or part of a series of virtually identical (production) knives.

A production knife, nowadays, is almost certainly CNC driven for most of the production steps, other than assembly — and possibly that, too. A production knife like this is part of a production run of many identical knives, with virtually no variation from knife to knife.

Certainly there is some overlap between the groups, but, basically, these are the categories as I understand them.

Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, but these groupings seem to be pretty basic to me.
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I agree I don't think most of these manufacturers that call themselves "custom"knife maker's are even close. Just because they charge custom prices doesn't make it true. Big deal they grind a blade by hand, that to me is a joke they are limited run production knives And nothing more. People that pay outrageous prices call them customs to justify the prices they pay. If there are 100 other knives of the same design its NOT A CUSTOM and I could care less if anyone agrees with me or not. A custom is a knife made to the buyer's specifications or a one of a kind knife weather or not it's cnc or forged. And to the people that will say I'm wrong look at it like this rj ,Todd beggs ,rick hinderer have all designed very successful knives and they make many of the same pattern to fill order's you might be able to get different handle materials or maybe even different steel's, but they are not going to make your design. You call get on there long waiting list and wen they get around to it they pull some part's out of a box from there favorite cnc shop and put it together if your lucky it might actually be the Guy that puts his Name on the box...if not it's an employees then they put the "magical custom" touch on the knife,the blade grind lol. Now if you call benchmade they won't make your design ether, but they do offer different steels or handle materials they too have many successful designs that they make many of,wen they build your knife they reach into a box of cnc part's and an employee puts them together. But no "magic hand ground custom" blade is attached instead you get one machine ground. What a big difference that is right? No. So I guess if the owner of benchmade hand ground the blade's they would be customs right? No it would be a production knife with a hand ground blade.
 
quick kill said:
I agree I don't think most of these manufacturers that call themselves "custom"knife maker's are even close. Just because they charge custom prices doesn't make it true. Big deal they grind a blade by hand, that to me is a joke they are limited run production knives And nothing more. People that pay outrageous prices call them customs to justify the prices they pay. If there are 100 other knives of the same design its NOT A CUSTOM and I could care less if anyone agrees with me or not. A custom is a knife made to the buyer's specifications or a one of a kind knife weather or not it's cnc or forged. And to the people that will say I'm wrong look at it like this rj ,Todd beggs ,rick hinderer have all designed very successful knives and they make many of the same pattern to fill order's you might be able to get different handle materials or maybe even different steel's, but they are not going to make your design. You call get on there long waiting list and wen they get around to it they pull some part's out of a box from there favorite cnc shop and put it together if your lucky it might actually be the Guy that puts his Name on the box...if not it's an employees then they put the "magical custom" touch on the knife,the blade grind lol. Now if you call benchmade they won't make your design ether, but they do offer different steels or handle materials they too have many successful designs that they make many of,wen they build your knife they reach into a box of cnc part's and an employee puts them together. But no "magic hand ground custom" blade is attached instead you get one machine ground. What a big difference that is right? No. So I guess if the owner of benchmade hand ground the blade's they would be customs right? No it would be a production knife with a hand ground blade.
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There's merit in what you say guys :thumbup:
 
I can tell your ages by the answers in this thread.Before 1980 CNC machines were rare but milling machines were not.Milling machines were used and are being used to turn out many fine products.You may have some knives that were before 1980.
 
kitkat52 said:
I can tell your ages by the answers in this thread.Before 1980 CNC machines were rare but milling machines were not.Milling machines were used and are being used to turn out many fine products.You may have some knives that were before 1980.
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Well, I'm in my mid sixties, so I certainly remember the eighties. I also remember milling machines. Now, what do you have when that milling machine is driven by a computer?

Take all the time you need.
 
Technology can be a hard thing to warm up to at times. I think it is the romance, or lack there of, that is at the heart if this issue. A quality product is no the question. Like it or not "craftsmen" simply cannot compete with technology. Just as gun manufactures discovered, no mater the skill level or years of service machines do it better, time after time to levels not possible by human hands.

With guns it was discoverde they broke and it would take weeks for repair because off the shelf parts wouldn't fit without trial and error fitting by a master craftsman. Many times he repaired item wasn't as good, after all id was different. Different metal, different heat treat, and a different size.

One of a kind items are nice, but they are special because they can never be replaced. If your one of a kind knife breaks you are out of luck. Even if a replacement was offered up it would be different metal, different forge, different temper, and a different shape. The origional might be pretty but it simple cannot be as good as a quality knife made today to exacting detail, with metal that can be reproduced so closely it is silly to talk about differences. They shape on a replacement so exact it couldn't be measured. That is the difference between Highend knives today and those from over seas. You can have limited quanities, or even one of a kind if you are willing to pay the design, and setup fees. If it breaks it can be replaced.

Today the misakes are more valued because they truely are rare.
 
kitkat52 said:
A CNC machine.
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Bingo.

If I remember correctly, many of the milling machines back in the 80's were driven by tape, which was almost the same thing. A good machinist would "teach" the machine to perform its functions, which were recorded on magnetic tape, then transferred to punch tape (which seem a little backward to me, but there you have it), which then drove the machine for repetitive tasks.

A machinist can still operate a milling machine, of course, but for producing many identical parts, CNC is faster, more economical and more reliable. Also, designs go from a CAD program directly to the machine nowadays, so you don't need the tapes.
 
dawsonbob said:
Bingo.

If I remember correctly, many of the milling machines back in the 80's were driven by tape, which was almost the same thing. A good machinist would "teach" the machine to perform its functions, which were recorded on magnetic tape, then transferred to punch tape (which seem a little backward to me, but there you have it), which then drove the machine for repetitive tasks.

A machinist can still operate a milling machine, of course, but for producing many identical parts, CNC is faster, more economical and more reliable. Also, designs go from a CAD program directly to the machine nowadays, so you don't need the tapes.
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Just a side note, the magnetic tape was probably used because it was re-writeable. You could go back and rework the program until it was perfect. Then it was transferred to a punch card for long term storage and repetitive use.

Kinda like using RAM and hard drives in modern computers, or EEPROM and EPROM chips.
 
Josh K said:
Just a side note, the magnetic tape was probably used because it was re-writeable. You could go back and rework the program until it was perfect. Then it was transferred to a punch card for long term storage and repetitive use.

Kinda like using RAM and hard drives in modern computers, or EEPROM and EPROM chips.
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I believe you're right, Josh. I should have thought of that.
 
cultivateitnow said:
Technology can be a hard thing to warm up to at times. I think it is the romance, or lack there of, that is at the heart if this issue. A quality product is no the question. Like it or not "craftsmen" simply cannot compete with technology. Just as gun manufactures discovered, no mater the skill level or years of service machines do it better, time after time to levels not possible by human hands.

With guns it was discoverde they broke and it would take weeks for repair because off the shelf parts wouldn't fit without trial and error fitting by a master craftsman. Many times he repaired item wasn't as good, after all id was different. Different metal, different heat treat, and a different size.

One of a kind items are nice, but they are special because they can never be replaced. If your one of a kind knife breaks you are out of luck. Even if a replacement was offered up it would be different metal, different forge, different temper, and a different shape. The origional might be pretty but it simple cannot be as good as a quality knife made today to exacting detail, with metal that can be reproduced so closely it is silly to talk about differences. They shape on a replacement so exact it couldn't be measured. That is the difference between Highend knives today and those from over seas. You can have limited quanities, or even one of a kind if you are willing to pay the design, and setup fees. If it breaks it can be replaced.

Today the misakes are more valued because they truely are rare.
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:thumbup: You bring up some very good points. Out of all of them, though, the point about romance may be the most pertinent. Where's the romance in someone designing in a CAD program, then sending the results to a machine for production? Compared to the thought of a craftsman at an anvil and forge, there isn't any.

All your points are valid, though, and repeatability and reliability are the things nowadays, thank goodness.
 
dawsonbob said:
:thumbup: You bring up some very good points. Out of all of them, though, the point about romance may be the most pertinent. Where's the romance in someone designing in a CAD program, then sending the results to a machine for production? Compared to the thought of a craftsman at an anvil and forge, there isn't any.
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This is what I was referring to in my earlier post. I'd say the "romance:confused:" is the same if both are skilled and dedicated to what they are doing. Tell me the RJ Martin folders above have no soul compared to a forged blade and I'll tell you you're wrong. They have every bit as much, maybe more. The passion, soul, and romance come from the craftsman and get into the piece by whatever method he/she chooses. As someone stated earlier, is art diminished by using a computer to make it rather than a brush and canvas? I say no. YMMV.
 
me2 said:
This is what I was referring to in my earlier post. I'd say the "romance:confused:" is the same if both are skilled and dedicated to what they are doing. Tell me the RJ Martin folders above have no soul compared to a forged blade and I'll tell you you're wrong. They have every bit as much, maybe more. The passion, soul, and romance come from the craftsman and get into the piece by whatever method he/she chooses. As someone stated earlier, is art diminished by using a computer to make it rather than a brush and canvas? I say no. YMMV.
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I think we're talking at cross purposes in this instance, me2. The public perception of someone forging a knife ("Under the spreading chestnut tree, the village smithy stands" etc.) is far more romantic to them than the thought of punching keys and moving a mouse.

Designing digitally certainly requires as much passion and skill as beating a hunk of steel into a piece of art, but it just doesn't have the same romance. Before you get all up in arms, please click on the link to my site in my signature. I think I'm qualified to comment. I trained as an engineer, but worked in advertising as an illustrator, designer and writer for many years until I retired. Now I design the odd knife here and there, so I'm not totally clueless about what goes into digital design/art. I am still, however, making a distinction between romance and passion.:D
 
kitkat52 said:
I know but I love learning what others are thinking.
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Me, too. Not only that, but I love learning all kinds of things, and I learn a lot from threads like this. People share ideas and viewpoints which, to me, is really neat. Sometimes, I even learn that what I thought I knew was wrong, as I did on another thread.:D
 
Does the tool used to create art make the creation any less? If an artist changes media from oil paints to watercolor, is the painting any less artful? When a knife maker changes from hammer and tongs to a CNC machine, he is still translating his artistic vision into reality. Is the artistic process then diminished?
 
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