cold steel all sizzle and no steak?

[1966c10]

I'll point this out to you because it doesn't seem to be all that obvious but you're mistaking Cold Steel's advertizing with what their knives are made for and capable of.
Your argument would prohibit people who don't own dogs from buying cars that are advertized as good dog carriers.

Cold Steel folders are intended and designed for the same market as all Kershaws, all Byrds, many Spyderco's, a few Benchmades and lots of other brands. They have their own style and design (which marketing emphasizes) but they're solid rugged inexpensive folders that come in all sizes. Cold Steel folders are in no way, in no sense of the word 'niche' knives, or knives intended for a niche part of the market.
If I made some video's showing Kershaws and Spyderco's cutting through meat filled boots (which I'm sure they could do), would that change their intended market? Of course not. It might make them appeal to an audience that until then was not interested in them though, just as - apparently - it turns off other people that would otherwise be interested in Cold Steel. That would be their loss, by the way.

A karambit is a niche knife. A 4" clippoint folder is not.

I'll point this out to you because it doesn't seem to be all that obvious but I'm not saying what CS's niche in the market actually is. My example was pulled from Gadfly22 and the rest was a jab at CS marketing. You can see where I used the phrase "such as", to show the statement that followed it was an example.

Are you intentionally missing the point or do you have comprehension issues?

My post was to explain to you that, right or wrong, Gadfly22's point was obvious and that his use of the term "niche" was fine. Whether or not CS's niche is poor people is irrelevant to my post. Yes, a Karambit is a "niche knife". Folding knives are a "niche". Kitchen knives are a "niche". Mallninjer is a "niche market". So what?

 

[Gadfly22]

Just yanking yer chain gadfly. Your past interruptions of threads aren't going to go un-noticed for long. I could have a better argument with my mailbox. At least I'd get to make a point once in awhile, when my arm gets tired from working the handle once in awhile.

Don't kid yourself for a minute and think that you're making huge contributions to some of the threads in which you've been exhibiting the same sort of behavior. You're derailing the discussions and disrespecting members either out-rightly or through your transparent sarcastic remarks.

So, I'd urge you to take your own advice and forget preaching to us about niches professor and start contributing about the topic, while overlooking the slight errors that you perceive in other member's observations. Most of us have women at home or in our lives to handle that job.

I suggest you take a look at the second post in this thread. It was mine, and I think it had some pertinent information in it based on my personal experience. And take a look at the post where I actually counted up the Cold Steel folding knives to get an idea of the price range they're trying to hit. Look at that: actual information! Or was that an "interruption"?

Now remember what I said about that "ignore" button. You feel free to use it as needed. And I'm not "disrespecting" anyone -- unless they "disrespect" me first.

 

[Mitchell Knives]

Some Cold Steel stuff is actually decent; especially some of the newer folders. I liked the old CarbonV fixed blades quite a bit.

I will give them credit for making some very cool and unusual items that no one else would ever consider producing. I also consider them to have one of the best marketing teams in the business.

My only real problem with Cold Steel is that they often ignore intellectual property rights, and insult others in the industry.

 

[philwar]

Now let's recap: I think Cold Steel competes and markets its folding knives primarily in the $30-80 range (as shown by the number of products in that range) and that it knows that -- in 2011 and recent years -- its target market for selling folding knives is in that range. Whether you call it a market niche, market segment, plain old market or whatever.

Does anyone disagree with that statement?

Only you did. It's good to see you've come around.
The $30-$80 range does not constitute a market niche. By ANY stretch of the imagination. Which was my point all along, repeated quite a few times.
They say you can lead a horse to water but you can't make it drink. Well, the same is not true of gadflies, it seems. With some patience (kudos to you crimsonfalcon) they WILL take the next step. :thumbup:

 

[philwar]

I'll point this out to you because it doesn't seem to be all that obvious but I'm not saying what CS's niche in the market actually is. My example was pulled from Gadfly22 and the rest was a jab at CS marketing. You can see where I used the phrase "such as", to show the statement that followed it was an example.

Are you intentionally missing the point or do you have comprehension issues?

My post was to explain to you that, right or wrong, Gadfly22's point was obvious and that his use of the term "niche" was fine. Whether or not CS's niche is poor people is irrelevant to my post. Yes, a Karambit is a "niche knife". Folding knives are a "niche". Kitchen knives are a "niche". Mallninjer is a "niche market". So what?

Try and keep up. Even gadfly's wisened up.
Folding knives are not a niche. Automobiles are not a niche. Kitchen knives are not a niche. Your sarcasm is backfiring on you.

 

[Gadfly22]

Only you did. It's good to see you've come around.
The $30-$80 range does not constitute a market niche. By ANY stretch of the imagination. Which was my point all along, repeated quite a few times.
They say you can lead a horse to water but you can't make it drink. Well, the same is not true of gadflies, it seems. With some patience (kudos to you crimsonfalcon) they WILL take the next step. :thumbup:

Sorry, but I stand by my use of "market niche". I just provided some synonyms to make it easier for some folks to understand. But if you want to insist on being silly and off-point, please continue.

 

[Gadfly22]

Try and keep up. Even gadfly's wisened up.
Folding knives are not a niche. Automobiles are not a niche. Kitchen knives are not a niche. Your sarcasm is backfiring on you.

Did you turn red and stamp your feet while you were typing that? That's how I pictured it. It was funny. I bet your cheeks puffed out real fat too.

(ooh, sorry -- was that "disrespecting"? Cause I think putting words in the mouth of someone you're having a discussion with is pretty disrespectful too. Not to mention dishonest.)

 

[Alann45]

I think this thread now holds the record for the number of times the word "niche" has been used.

What I find interesting is how every thread about CS generates such strong reaction, and frequently degenerates into personal attacks and/or going off on odd tangents.

 

[scouter27]

Cold Steel folders are not niche knives. In ANY sense of the word.

How about this sense of the word?

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/niche a place, employment, status, or activity for which a person or thing is best fitted

A $50 folder has a niche: people (typically) looking for a folder that isn't "cheap junk," but also isn't too expensive. That is a niche, even though it's potentially (and incredibly likely to be) very large.

Everyone and everything has a niche. The size and or scope of that niche is related to the capability of the person or object.

There is a difference between a product's niche, and a niche product. You seem to be confusing these phrases.

 

[1966c10]

Try and keep up. Even gadfly's wisened up.
Folding knives are not a niche. Automobiles are not a niche. Kitchen knives are not a niche. Your sarcasm is backfiring on you.

LOL. So now we've reached the "because I said so" part of your argument.

Kitchen knives are a specialized niche in the knife market with its own customer base that doesn't necessarily purchase any other type of knife. Just because other customer bases overlap into the kitchen knife sub-market, doesn't mean that it isn't its own niche. My grandmother has never purchased a hunting knife or a folding knife.

People that want folding knives above the quality level of chinese made 440a gas station folding knives but won't spend over $100 is most definitely a niche market. My brother falls into this. He hasn't purchased any other type of knife in the last 10 years. Calling it the "$30-$80 market niche" wouldn't necessarily be wrong. Cold Steel most definitely focuses on that niche. Maybe not exclusively, but almost every folder they make is directed at it. The same could also be said for CRKT and Kershaw, I suppose.

 

[cziv]

I suggest you take a look at the second post in this thread. It was mine, and I think it had some pertinent information in it based on my personal experience. And take a look at the post where I actually counted up the Cold Steel folding knives to get an idea of the price range they're trying to hit. Look at that: actual information! Or was that an "interruption"?

Now remember what I said about that "ignore" button. You feel free to use it as needed. And I'm not "disrespecting" anyone -- unless they "disrespect" me first.

Sorry, but I stand by my use of "market niche". I just provided some synonyms to make it easier for some folks to understand. But if you want to insist on being silly and off-point, please continue.

Did you turn red and stamp your feet while you were typing that? That's how I pictured it. It was funny. I bet your cheeks puffed out real fat too.

(ooh, sorry -- was that "disrespecting"? Cause I think putting words in the mouth of someone you're having a discussion with is pretty disrespectful too. Not to mention dishonest.)

Yes, I read the post that you made and it was very good and what is encouraged, but you know that. I'm referring to the volume of your posts containing meaningless arguments about a word and smart *ss remarks like those above. These are a small sample and by comparison to your post - #2 - a drop in the bucket of your so called contributions to this thread. And that's just this thread. BTW, I'll remember that ignore button okay? I have a pretty good memory.

 

[crimsonfalcon07]

I think this thread now holds the record for the number of times the word "niche" has been used.

What I find interesting is how every thread about CS generates such strong reaction, and frequently degenerates into personal attacks and/or going off on odd tangents.

QFT.

I'll be honest, I chimed in on the whole niche bit because I found it surprising that Gadfly, instead of just admitting that his word choice wasn't perfect, actually had to argue about it, even despite clear documentation that "niche" shouldn't include the entirety of the market.

I do disagree with philwar in that I think that "folding knives" have a particular niche of the market, as do fixed blades. But within the $30-$80 range, Cold Steel produces products in every single niche. And the claim that somehow users who purchase $300 folding knives won't purchase a $30 knife if it's a decent knife, strikes me as demonstrably untrue. $500 knives have a particular niche in the market. $30-$80 dollar knives only remove the portion of the population who won't buy a knife if it's more than $5. So it's not a sufficient segment of the population to justify the term niche, in my opinion, and gadfly's made-up relational discussion of the term "market niche," not to mention niggling about niche market vs market niche, strikes me as even more of a waste of time.

I've continued pulling gadfly's chain thus far not because I actually care about correct use of the term, but because I'm curious how far Gadfly is willing to go to avoid having to admit that, oh no, he said niche instead of some other term that doesn't have a clearly defined definition in context of marketing. Horrors! Seems to me it would be simpler to say, "I just meant that <insert blah blah blah about relational blah blah blah>, and I'm not that invested in whether or not I used "niche" correctly," rather than this whole argument and "I STILL stand by my use of niche." Wow.

My apologies to everyone for my part in this. I'm out of it now.

Back on topic, I'm curious about the people who have complained about Cold Steel's marketing team. What would you suggest they do differently?

"My only real problem with Cold Steel is that they often ignore intellectual property rights, and insult others in the industry." This one seems to be to be the best criticism thus far. I'm curious, which intellectual property rights have they ignored, and who did they insult? I'd like to hear some actual dirt.

 

[A.P.F.]

Did you turn red and stamp your feet while you were typing that? That's how I pictured it. It was funny. I bet your cheeks puffed out real fat too.

(ooh, sorry -- was that "disrespecting"? Cause I think putting words in the mouth of someone you're having a discussion with is pretty disrespectful too. Not to mention dishonest.)

You have now crossed the line into the 'trolling' realm. I have no argument with you Gadfly, but if you can't stay on point and courteous, you had best not post at all.

 

[philwar]

Did you turn red and stamp your feet while you were typing that? That's how I pictured it. It was funny. I bet your cheeks puffed out real fat too.

That's called projection. Ask your therapist, he'll explain it to you.

(ooh, sorry -- was that "disrespecting"? Cause I think putting words in the mouth of someone you're having a discussion with is pretty disrespectful too. Not to mention dishonest.)

I didn't put words in the mouth of anyone I was having a discussion with. If you're implying I'm having one with you, you're sadly mistaken.

 

[Ankerson]

QFT.

I'll be honest, I chimed in on the whole niche bit because I found it surprising that Gadfly, instead of just admitting that his word choice wasn't perfect, actually had to argue about it, even despite clear documentation that "niche" shouldn't include the entirety of the market.

I do disagree with philwar in that I think that "folding knives" have a particular niche of the market, as do fixed blades. But within the $30-$80 range, Cold Steel produces products in every single niche. And the claim that somehow users who purchase $300 folding knives won't purchase a $30 knife if it's a decent knife, strikes me as demonstrably untrue. $500 knives have a particular niche in the market. $30-$80 dollar knives only remove the portion of the population who won't buy a knife if it's more than $5. So it's not a sufficient segment of the population to justify the term niche, in my opinion, and gadfly's made-up relational discussion of the term "market niche," not to mention niggling about niche market vs market niche, strikes me as even more of a waste of time.

I've continued pulling gadfly's chain thus far not because I actually care about correct use of the term, but because I'm curious how far Gadfly is willing to go to avoid having to admit that, oh no, he said niche instead of some other term that doesn't have a clearly defined definition in context of marketing. Horrors! Seems to me it would be simpler to say, "I just meant that <insert blah blah blah about relational blah blah blah>, and I'm not that invested in whether or not I used "niche" correctly," rather than this whole argument and "I STILL stand by my use of niche." Wow.

My apologies to everyone for my part in this. I'm out of it now.

Back on topic, I'm curious about the people who have complained about Cold Steel's marketing team. What would you suggest they do differently?

"My only real problem with Cold Steel is that they often ignore intellectual property rights, and insult others in the industry." This one seems to be to be the best criticism thus far. I'm curious, which intellectual property rights have they ignored, and who did they insult? I'd like to hear some actual dirt.

Most of the market as a whole, I mean out in the real world outside of BF, you know Billions of people are buying $5 - $35 knives (street price), the reason why most of the Major players make some models in that range.

Also the reason why most of the people know what a SAK or Buck 110 is.....

 

[Gadfly22]

You have now crossed the line into the 'trolling' realm. I have no argument with you Gadfly, but if you can't stay on point and courteous, you had best not post at all.

And was I the one who started putting words in the mouth of the people I was discussing things with? Or "interrupting" the discussion with Youtube videos?

Nope.

I'll discuss politely and rationally with anyone. But if someone wants to stoop to 12-year-old tactics with me, I can stoop just as low. Not proud of it, but sometimes it's the only thing people who have given up the real argument understand.

 

[Gadfly22]

That's called projection. Ask your therapist, he'll explain it to you.


I didn't put words in the mouth of anyone I was having a discussion with. If you're implying I'm having one with you, you're sadly mistaken.

You stated that I had "come around". You know that is incorrect and posted it anyway. My position is unchanged on your silly semantic war -- which unfortunately is far off the original point of this thread and even the discussion of Cold Steel's marketing.

 

[-Ranger-]

I like my Cold Steel stuff; from the folders to the walking sticks... they really fill a niche.

 

[Gadfly22]

QFT.

I'll be honest, I chimed in on the whole niche bit because I found it surprising that Gadfly, instead of just admitting that his word choice wasn't perfect, actually had to argue about it, even despite clear documentation that "niche" shouldn't include the entirety of the market.

I do disagree with philwar in that I think that "folding knives" have a particular niche of the market, as do fixed blades. But within the $30-$80 range, Cold Steel produces products in every single niche. And the claim that somehow users who purchase $300 folding knives won't purchase a $30 knife if it's a decent knife, strikes me as demonstrably untrue. $500 knives have a particular niche in the market. $30-$80 dollar knives only remove the portion of the population who won't buy a knife if it's more than $5. So it's not a sufficient segment of the population to justify the term niche, in my opinion, and gadfly's made-up relational discussion of the term "market niche," not to mention niggling about niche market vs market niche, strikes me as even more of a waste of time.

I've continued pulling gadfly's chain thus far not because I actually care about correct use of the term, but because I'm curious how far Gadfly is willing to go to avoid having to admit that, oh no, he said niche instead of some other term that doesn't have a clearly defined definition in context of marketing. Horrors! Seems to me it would be simpler to say, "I just meant that <insert blah blah blah about relational blah blah blah>, and I'm not that invested in whether or not I used "niche" correctly," rather than this whole argument and "I STILL stand by my use of niche." Wow.

My apologies to everyone for my part in this. I'm out of it now.

Back on topic, I'm curious about the people who have complained about Cold Steel's marketing team. What would you suggest they do differently?

"My only real problem with Cold Steel is that they often ignore intellectual property rights, and insult others in the industry." This one seems to be to be the best criticism thus far. I'm curious, which intellectual property rights have they ignored, and who did they insult? I'd like to hear some actual dirt.

For the record, Gadfly doesn't admit he's chosen the wrong phrase when he hasn't. As pointed out by me and others, "market niche" is different from "niche market" -- the latter being a term I didn't use. "Market niche" is perfectly descriptive in the context that I used it, connoting the firms competing in higher price points for folding knives, those competing in the lower price points and those around Cold Steel in the price range we're talking about. I never suggested that this "niche" was small or narrow -- but it does exist with other economic niches around it. That reading appears to have entered the heads of those who had a preconception about "niche marketing".

If you want me to admit that my idea or expression or empirical facts were incorrect or inappropriate, please provide the evidence instead of insisting that only your notion of a "niche" is correct. And this isn't a matter of internet dictionary definitions for or against. Show me in context how my statement was incorrect. I don't think you can.

 

[Gadfly22]

Yes, I read the post that you made and it was very good and what is encouraged, but you know that. I'm referring to the volume of your posts containing meaningless arguments about a word and smart *ss remarks like those above. These are a small sample and by comparison to your post - #2 - a drop in the bucket of your so called contributions to this thread. And that's just this thread. BTW, I'll remember that ignore button okay? I have a pretty good memory.

I didn't start the semantic war. Go back and look, and you'll see that I was accused of contradicting myself because I used the term "market niche" in connection with Cold Steel, while pointing out they sell to a mass market. Now, instead of using an inflammatory accusation of contradiction, the poster could have asked himself if I didn't mean something other than "niche market" -- something that was consistent with mass marketing. Or could have asked if I meant "niche market". Or simply read my statement in context instead of starting a semantic fight over a phrase he misconstrued.

All those things could have happened. But didn't. Not even after I tried to clarify the language after the "contradict" post. Go look and see. I'm then accused of not understanding the word "niche" and things escalated from there. And I'm somehow at fault? I don't think so. So when I go all smart*ss, I think you'll find it was a response in kind and not a first strike.