cold steel all sizzle and no steak?

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I'll point this out to you because it doesn't seem to be all that obvious but you're mistaking Cold Steel's advertizing with what their knives are made for and capable of.
Your argument would prohibit people who don't own dogs from buying cars that are advertized as good dog carriers.

Cold Steel folders are intended and designed for the same market as all Kershaws, all Byrds, many Spyderco's, a few Benchmades and lots of other brands. They have their own style and design (which marketing emphasizes) but they're solid rugged inexpensive folders that come in all sizes. Cold Steel folders are in no way, in no sense of the word 'niche' knives, or knives intended for a niche part of the market.
If I made some video's showing Kershaws and Spyderco's cutting through meat filled boots (which I'm sure they could do), would that change their intended market? Of course not. It might make them appeal to an audience that until then was not interested in them though, just as - apparently - it turns off other people that would otherwise be interested in Cold Steel. That would be their loss, by the way.

A karambit is a niche knife. A 4" clippoint folder is not.

Sorry, but you keep misconstruing the word "niche" to mean something small. It can mean something small, but it can also refer to strata in a market that can be any size. Any particular market stratum can be large in relation to other strata. Cold Steel -- like Kershaw -- appeals primarily to a particular price point in the folding knife market that happens to be large. That is their market niche, and they know it. So Cold Steel can have a few expensive folders like the Espada, and Kershaw can offer the Tilt. But when Kershaw wants to hit a more upscale market niche, it usually uses its ZT brand (like GM marketing both Chevys and Cadillacs). And you'll see in my earlier post that I didn't say Cold Steel was appealing to a different market niche than Kershaw; I just said it didn't have as large a product line (i.e, in folding knives).

You can try to HumptyDumpty the word "niche" as much as you want, but you are limiting that word incorrectly and repeatedly reading posts completely out of context.
 
I don't know Gadfly... as per the definition, niche, as a specialized portion of the market, wouldn't really apply to a discussion of price point. There's nothing "specialized" about spending 30-80 dollars, as opposed to 200 dollars. Specialized would refer to the market share that revolves around a very specific use of the tool, where in general it's just not good for general use. A $50 folder can be sold to someone who regularly spends $200+ on a knife, and, shocker, will perform the same task.

As philwar pointed out, Karambits have a very specific purpose. They are fighting knives, designed for a particular fighting style. That is a niche. A rescue hook has a very specific purpose. Cutting seatbelts. Niche. Selling a product at a different price point does not make a niche outside the mainstream niche, particularly not the "niche" you are trying to describe (namely, the VAST majority of the knife market).

As we've seen, a 4" folder isn't aimed at any particular subset of the market, outside of maybe the portion of the market that goes for folding knives, and Cold Steel has a very wide range of products beyond folders. Nor does the price that pertains to said folders mean that Cold Steel markets specifically to a certain price range of consumers. If anything, because their marketing videos all share the common trend of showing how well their blades cut various substances, they're aimed at the portion of the market who likes their knives to be able to cut something. Oh wait...

The point, as tangential as it may be to the broader discussion about Cold Steel, is that they aren't marketing to a specialized subset of the overall knife market. They market to everyone; they've got their San Mai blades which probably target the knife steel snobs with deep pockets, they have a very broad range of fixed blades and folders in a budget range, they've got swords, polearms, spears, etc. In fact, if anything, Kershaw is the niche marketer, as they have pretty much only folders and the occasional fixed blade. Kershaw's niche is largely in locking folders. So applying "niche market" to Cold Steel does not really seem apropos.
 
I don't know Gadfly... as per the definition, niche, as a specialized portion of the market, wouldn't really apply to a discussion of price point. There's nothing "specialized" about spending 30-80 dollars, as opposed to 200 dollars. Specialized would refer to the market share that revolves around a very specific use of the tool, where in general it's just not good for general use. A $50 folder can be sold to someone who regularly spends $200+ on a knife, and, shocker, will perform the same task.

As philwar pointed out, Karambits have a very specific purpose. They are fighting knives, designed for a particular fighting style. That is a niche. A rescue hook has a very specific purpose. Cutting seatbelts. Niche. Selling a product at a different price point does not make a niche outside the mainstream niche, particularly not the "niche" you are trying to describe (namely, the VAST majority of the knife market).

As we've seen, a 4" folder isn't aimed at any particular subset of the market, outside of maybe the portion of the market that goes for folding knives, and Cold Steel has a very wide range of products beyond folders. Nor does the price that pertains to said folders mean that Cold Steel markets specifically to a certain price range of consumers. If anything, because their marketing videos all share the common trend of showing how well their blades cut various substances, they're aimed at the portion of the market who likes their knives to be able to cut something. Oh wait...

The point, as tangential as it may be to the broader discussion about Cold Steel, is that they aren't marketing to a specialized subset of the overall knife market. They market to everyone; they've got their San Mai blades which probably target the knife steel snobs with deep pockets, they have a very broad range of fixed blades and folders in a budget range, they've got swords, polearms, spears, etc. In fact, if anything, Kershaw is the niche marketer, as they have pretty much only folders and the occasional fixed blade. Kershaw's niche is largely in locking folders. So applying "niche market" to Cold Steel does not really seem apropos.

The discussion was specifically (as I understood it) about Cold Steel folders. You can quibble with my usage of "niche" to talk about the target buyers in a particular price range for that particular type of knife, but I submit that it is correct. It is also correct to use the term as you and Philwar do to talk about much more specialized appeal. I don't disagree with you on that point at all.

Which is beside the broader point that I think everyone who has commented about this issue is in agreement on: Cold Steel makes good-to-very-good folding knives in the $30-80 range. I'm not even sure anyone would disagree with me that Cold Steel knows that the market audience for that type of knife is its bread-and-butter.

I've termed it a "market niche" because -- as with the term "ecological niche" -- it connotes its relational place to other makers: most Benchmades and Spydercos above it; Chinese and other brands below it (price-wise remember); and Kershaw, CRKT and other brands in the same or similar price tier with most of their products.
 
Cold Steel folders are not niche knives. In ANY sense of the word.

I'm sorry that you don't seem to understand the concepts involved. I've explained as clearly as I could. But since you don't know (or can't bring yourself to admit) the difference between the term "niche knife" and the term "market niche", there's not much point in discussing it. I can't be any clearer or dumb it down any further for you.
 

That's nice. Now, can you refer me or anyone to a post in which I claimed that Cold Steel makes "niche knives"?

I don't think you can, since I haven't been talking about "niche knives". (That's been your domain for some reason. And you've been having a very nice argument with yourself about it too.) I've been talking about "market niche", which I have explained and given examples of several times. Those are different concepts entirely.
 
I can't be any clearer or dumb it down any further for you.
I agree, you seem incapable of clarifying your point to a sensible degree, and you certainly couldn't make it any dumber. CS folders are priced from the Kudu to "custom" (silly name) series at the MSRP of Sebenzas and XM-18s. They have branded Opinel knockoffs, traditional slipjoints, utility folders, and big honkin' "fighters". The price on the Voyager series has fluctuated 100% over the years due to material choices and currency exchange rates. You perceive Cold Steel as something in particular, a niche you have forced it into based on personal opinion and absolutely no hard figures from the market.
 
I agree, you seem incapable of clarifying your point to a sensible degree, and you certainly couldn't make it any dumber. CS folders are priced from the Kudu to "custom" (silly name) series at the MSRP of Sebenzas and XM-18s. They have branded Opinel knockoffs, traditional slipjoints, utility folders, and big honkin' "fighters". The price on the Voyager series has fluctuated 100% over the years due to material choices and currency exchange rates. You perceive Cold Steel as something in particular, a niche you have forced it into based on personal opinion and absolutely no hard figures from the market.

So you think of Cold Steel as similar to CRK? Is that correct? Or do you think of them as more similar to Kershaw for example?

I happen to think of them -- as a folding knife maker -- as more similar to Kershaw. They can produce low-cost knives like a Kudu or Mini Tuff (like Kershaw can produce a Half Ton or One Ton) and more expensive knives like an Espada (like Kershaw can produce the Tilt). But most of their offerings (and I'd wager revenue and profit -- though none of us will see the accountant's figures to prove that) from the knives in the $30-80 range.

But if you prefer to think of them as competing in the CRK market niche (and I think it can be said that CRK markets "niche knives" in a way that Cold Steel and Kershaw do not), please feel free to be ridiculous.
 
A rather pitiful strawman to suggest in any way that I placed the company as direct competition to CRK. They make knives with MSRPs that high, which is well above the arbitrary and ridiculously wide range of $30 to $80. Buck, Benchmade, Spyderco, Kai/Kershaw, Case, and many, many others also sell in this wide gulf. They also have Custom shop, Gold Class, ZT, Bose collabs, etc for premium dollars. I think a lot of companies fill a "niche" of offering products priced from X to nearly three times X. Chevy sells the Aveo and the ZR1 Corvette. Their "niche" is to compete with every single auto manufacturer on the planet, it seems.
 
A rather pitiful strawman to suggest in any way that I placed the company as direct competition to CRK. They make knives with MSRPs that high, which is well above the arbitrary and ridiculously wide range of $30 to $80. Buck, Benchmade, Spyderco, Kai/Kershaw, Case, and many, many others also sell in this wide gulf. They also have Custom shop, Gold Class, ZT, Bose collabs, etc for premium dollars. I think a lot of companies fill a "niche" of offering products priced from X to nearly three times X. Chevy sells the Aveo and the ZR1 Corvette. Their "niche" is to compete with every single auto manufacturer on the planet, it seems.

And where do you think Cold Steel and Kershaw and Chevrolet make most of their revenue and profit? That's the key market for each of those companies.

It's no great revelation that mass market companies often offer a broad range of products. So I'm not sure where you're going with your argument. Is Cold Steel -- like Kershaw and not like CRK -- mostly offering its folding knives (which is the focus of this discussion) in the $30-80 range or not? If you take a look at its current catalog, with its Voyagers, Recon1s, American Lawman (and mini) and AK47 (and mini), Ti-lites, Mini Tuffs, Hold Outs etc., I think you'll see where they are primarily positioning themselves in the market.
 
Yep, I finally gave up. It took me a while to realize you were never going to start.


For you, yes. Please keep in mind I had the excuse of not knowing you until now. Trust me, I won't attempt it again.

Thanks. Offer accepted.
 
I have this strange feeling that the folders aren't by any stretch of the imagination the lion's share of Cold Steel's "bread and butter." And trying to make marginal distinctions between "niche knife" and "market niche" doesn't change the fact that niche is not an appropriate term for Cold Steel. That's the point philwar and hardheart and myself have been trying to make. It doesn't fit the definition, and all of your verbal wiggling, trying to pretend you said something different than you did, doesn't change facts. Here's what you did say, and the spark for this particular discussion:

It knows it's market niche, and it's pool of potential customers.

Leaving aside the incorrect punctuation, the main point here is that you're trying to shove Cold Steel into a "market niche," which, as evidently we've now agreed, indicates a specialized market. The knives, particularly in the range you mention, are not specialized. Their only specialty is that they cut. That doesn't indicate a market niche. The price range that they happen to sell to doesn't speak at ALL to the potential customers, which includes ANYONE who might want a knife. Not just a folding knife, a knife. More on this in a moment. There are plenty of CRK owners on here who are perfectly happy to own and use a CS Voyager. Sure, it's a 10th the price of a CRK. But it's still a knife, without any particular appeal to any subset of the knife-using market. There's no niche.

Let's add to that the fact that you are only now trying to refocus the discussion on Cold Steel's folders. That's also inappropriate, especially because you didn't reference specifically Cold Steel's folding knives, and fixed blades, tomahawks, and other specialty items are also included in the $30-$80 range you did specify.

There's no evidence to suggest that folders are Cold Steel's bread and butter, and honestly, given that they're clearly astute marketers in the sense that they've built a successful company, if your most recent statement about folders being so important to their market share were true, they would have more variety, much like Kershaw. As I pointed out earlier, Kershaw might qualify as pursuing a market niche because they're clearly focused on folders. Cold Steel, well, not so much.

So, let's get back to the basics of the discussion. You've provided an arbitrary price range for Cold Steel products that you think comprise the majority of their sales, and you're trying to call that a "niche." But within this price range, we include folders, clubs, training swords, machetes, combat knives, kitchen knives, hunting knives, throwing stars, tomahawks, pepper spray... the list goes on. Each of those different types of products might be correctly classified as a "market niche." If you take all of these different products, and lump them together, as you've done by specifying the price range you did, the target audience for product consumption is pretty much everyone. Not even just knife owners, but anyone that might want pepper spray, or a kitchen knife, or a club. There's no subset whatsoever that you can point to.

And it's particularly foolish to think that just because someone may be able to afford an expensive knife means that they will somehow no longer like a well-made, well-designed INEXPENSIVE folder. Price only really dictates market niche in the upward direction. It's demonstrably true that a person without much money is not likely to go for a CRK. Thus CRK might be said to appeal to the "rich" market niche. But the converse isn't true, and in fact there are several people who have mentioned that they own expensive knives, and yet have pre-ordered a Voyager. Nor is it necessarily true that Cold Steel focuses on their less expensive products. They put a great deal of energy into marketing their more expensive products, and if they sell one sword, that's the equivalent of 10 Voyagers. Sure, the majority of their sales in context of knives is probably the less expensive ones. But they don't need to sell that many expensive products to make it worth their while.
 
I have this strange feeling that the folders aren't by any stretch of the imagination the lion's share of Cold Steel's "bread and butter." And trying to make marginal distinctions between "niche knife" and "market niche" doesn't change the fact that niche is not an appropriate term for Cold Steel. That's the point philwar and hardheart and myself have been trying to make. It doesn't fit the definition, and all of your verbal wiggling, trying to pretend you said something different than you did, doesn't change facts. Here's what you did say, and the spark for this particular discussion:



Leaving aside the incorrect punctuation, the main point here is that you're trying to shove Cold Steel into a "market niche," which, as evidently we've now agreed, indicates a specialized market. The knives, particularly in the range you mention, are not specialized. Their only specialty is that they cut. That doesn't indicate a market niche. The price range that they happen to sell to doesn't speak at ALL to the potential customers, which includes ANYONE who might want a knife. Not just a folding knife, a knife. More on this in a moment. There are plenty of CRK owners on here who are perfectly happy to own and use a CS Voyager. Sure, it's a 10th the price of a CRK. But it's still a knife, without any particular appeal to any subset of the knife-using market. There's no niche.

Let's add to that the fact that you are only now trying to refocus the discussion on Cold Steel's folders. That's also inappropriate, especially because you didn't reference specifically Cold Steel's folding knives, and fixed blades, tomahawks, and other specialty items are also included in the $30-$80 range you did specify.

There's no evidence to suggest that folders are Cold Steel's bread and butter, and honestly, given that they're clearly astute marketers in the sense that they've built a successful company, if your most recent statement about folders being so important to their market share were true, they would have more variety, much like Kershaw. As I pointed out earlier, Kershaw might qualify as pursuing a market niche because they're clearly focused on folders. Cold Steel, well, not so much.

So, let's get back to the basics of the discussion. You've provided an arbitrary price range for Cold Steel products that you think comprise the majority of their sales, and you're trying to call that a "niche." But within this price range, we include folders, clubs, training swords, machetes, combat knives, kitchen knives, hunting knives, throwing stars, tomahawks, pepper spray... the list goes on. Each of those different types of products might be correctly classified as a "market niche." If you take all of these different products, and lump them together, as you've done by specifying the price range you did, the target audience for product consumption is pretty much everyone. Not even just knife owners, but anyone that might want pepper spray, or a kitchen knife, or a club. There's no subset whatsoever that you can point to.

And it's particularly foolish to think that just because someone may be able to afford an expensive knife means that they will somehow no longer like a well-made, well-designed INEXPENSIVE folder. Price only really dictates market niche in the upward direction. It's demonstrably true that a person without much money is not likely to go for a CRK. Thus CRK might be said to appeal to the "rich" market niche. But the converse isn't true, and in fact there are several people who have mentioned that they own expensive knives, and yet have pre-ordered a Voyager. Nor is it necessarily true that Cold Steel focuses on their less expensive products. They put a great deal of energy into marketing their more expensive products, and if they sell one sword, that's the equivalent of 10 Voyagers. Sure, the majority of their sales in context of knives is probably the less expensive ones. But they don't need to sell that many expensive products to make it worth their while.

Nice long post. Incredibly incorrect premise, with a few irrelevant tangents. Re-read my posts for an explanation -- clarified several times -- that "market niche" was never in any way used as in the sense of "specialized market".

The term as I used it means simply means a primary market for folding knives. If you think that Cold Steel competes primarily in a market niche for its folding knives under the $30-80 range or over it, I disagree and cite as evidence the prices you'll find for those folding knives on the major internet vendors. The fact that you'll find most of the Cold Steel folding knives in that range indicates that it's not some arbitrary range I pulled out of a hat. That's simply the price range in which they sell most of their folding knives.

They certainly sell some knives at less than a $30 price point and some at more than $80. But their primary competition for folding knives falls roughly between those 2 price points.

And you persist in the fallacy that a "market niche" has to be some small subset. It can be, but in the way I've used the term (which I've repeated over and over) is in its common relational sense. If I had said "market segment" or "market strata", the point would have been similar. Though I suppose you're capable of misreading those terms also.
 
Re-read my posts for an explanation -- clarified several times -- that "market niche" was never in any way used as in the sense of "specialized market".

Exactly the point. You aren't using the term correctly. If you aren't using it in the context of a subset of the primary market, you're not using the term correctly. That's THE WHOLE POINT. Thank you for summing up so eloquently that you aren't using the term correctly.

And you persist in the fallacy that a "market niche" has to be some small subset.

No, it just has to be SOME type of subset. Within the range you cited, as I pointed out, Cold Steel sells products in pretty much EVERY subset of the market. Which again makes it an incorrect usage of the term. Also, you don't get to wiggle out and claim you're only talking about folders. You didn't say that when this whole thing started; you don't get to switch your position in the middle of the argument.
 
And just to provide the actual evidence, I just did a search on a prominent internet knife vendor likely to have the most Cold Steel offerings. The result:

4 folding knives priced under $30
8 folding knives priced over $80
43 knives priced between $30 and $80.

78% of Cold Steel folding knives priced in the $30-80 range; 7% under $30; and 15% over $80. So I don't think my choice of the $30-80 range as the primary market niche/segment/strata/part/portion in which Cold Steel competes with its folding knives is "arbitrary".
 
Exactly the point. You aren't using the term correctly. If you aren't using it in the context of a subset of the primary market, you're not using the term correctly. That's THE WHOLE POINT. Thank you for summing up so eloquently that you aren't using the term correctly.



No, it just has to be SOME type of subset. Within the range you cited, as I pointed out, Cold Steel sells products in pretty much EVERY subset of the market. Which again makes it an incorrect usage of the term. Also, you don't get to wiggle out and claim you're only talking about folders. You didn't say that when this whole thing started; you don't get to switch your position in the middle of the argument.

See what I just posted to blow your argument out of the water. And stop insisting that only your understanding of what "market niche" means is correct. You're wrong and intentionally (at least I hope intentionally) misunderstanding my point.
 
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