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Anybody else think it's weird that CS doesn't have an assisted opener yet? It's like, come on... hop on the bandwagon already. Every other knife company is doing it.
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Cold Steel "borrowing" Emerson's wave openly. See pics!
- Thread starter Death's Head
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Knifeclerk said:
maybe they are having a hard time deciding which mechanism to steal.:jerkit:
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Patents are quite the double edged sword.
You have to make public what you patent, therefore others can copy it or attempt to circumvent/get around it while performing the same function.
Thats why Coca-Cola is not patented (its a trade secret).
I'd need to read and study Mr. Emerson's patent (or anyones, for that matter).
However, basic function does not neccasarily break a patent. Everyone does remember the PBJ sandwich patent, I hope?
If a product sells, people work to get around any impediments to manufacturing similiar products. And that gives us choices.
I'm betting the patent covers integral flip contours, not attached. Therefore, if true, the situation would be a "not nice" situation, but not illegal.
You have to make public what you patent, therefore others can copy it or attempt to circumvent/get around it while performing the same function.
Thats why Coca-Cola is not patented (its a trade secret).
I'd need to read and study Mr. Emerson's patent (or anyones, for that matter).
However, basic function does not neccasarily break a patent. Everyone does remember the PBJ sandwich patent, I hope?
If a product sells, people work to get around any impediments to manufacturing similiar products. And that gives us choices.
I'm betting the patent covers integral flip contours, not attached. Therefore, if true, the situation would be a "not nice" situation, but not illegal.
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- Oct 18, 2003
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Exactly. Just like Spyderco patented the hole. You can't legally put a round hole in a folder blade but triangles, ovals, teardrops, etc aren't considered infringement of the Spyderco patent
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The statemnt regarding thier wave is the same as Emerson's wave, and they clips to make the knives tip-up.Rat Finkenstein said:
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- Dec 11, 2002
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Whether it is patent infringement or not (I believe it is), Lynn Thompson has no honor or integrity. I buy my knives based upon the "man" behind the company. Makers like Sal Glesser, Ernie Emerson, and Mick Strider will always get my hard-earned money. Cold Steal will never get a cent from me
This will probalbly get some fire but who knows....
What about all the knives with flippers on the blade like M-16's from CRKT. I know they have a deal with Kit carson but what about kershaw? Darrel Ralph?
A couple of Brad Duncan's knives appear that they have a flipper on them though i'm not sure. The SOG topo meridian folder looks like it has a flipper even thought its assisted.
I'm sure theres more but right now i don't have time to look.
So anyways these knives all have similar designed opening devices but there not exact. Cold steels "wave" is more of a copy than the flippers i listed but it is still not exact.
http://www.knifecenter.com/kc_new/store_detail.html?s=SOGM46T
http://knifeart.com/blacaftacfol1.html
http://www.darrelralph.com/1mainframe.htm
http://www.knifecenter.com/kc_new/s...rch=eqCATE CODEdatarq=CRT&eqKEYWORDdatarq=m16
So do those people have deals with Kit Carson because it is my understanding that he originated the idea of the flipper. If i'm wrong forgive me but could somebody shed some light on this.
What about all the knives with flippers on the blade like M-16's from CRKT. I know they have a deal with Kit carson but what about kershaw? Darrel Ralph?
A couple of Brad Duncan's knives appear that they have a flipper on them though i'm not sure. The SOG topo meridian folder looks like it has a flipper even thought its assisted.
I'm sure theres more but right now i don't have time to look.
So anyways these knives all have similar designed opening devices but there not exact. Cold steels "wave" is more of a copy than the flippers i listed but it is still not exact.
http://www.knifecenter.com/kc_new/store_detail.html?s=SOGM46T
http://knifeart.com/blacaftacfol1.html
http://www.darrelralph.com/1mainframe.htm
http://www.knifecenter.com/kc_new/s...rch=eqCATE CODEdatarq=CRT&eqKEYWORDdatarq=m16
So do those people have deals with Kit Carson because it is my understanding that he originated the idea of the flipper. If i'm wrong forgive me but could somebody shed some light on this.
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Some of the new Leatherman knives have flippers too.
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- Jan 9, 2006
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- 374
Ted Voorde said:
So what does that mean?
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- Oct 30, 2005
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Oh, just go to the U.S. Patent and Trademark Office site and the differences between trade secrets, patents, and trademarks are explained (glossary, etc).
Trademark - protect words, names, symbols, sounds, or colors that distinguish goods and services from those manufactured or sold by others and to indicate the source of the goods. Trademarks, unlike patents, can be renewed forever as long as they are being used in commerce.
Patent - a property right granted by the Government of the United States of America to an inventor “to exclude others from making, using, offering for sale, or selling the invention throughout the United States or importing the invention into the United States” for a limited time in exchange for public disclosure of the invention when the patent is granted.
Trade Secret - information that companies keep secret to give them an advantage over their competitors
There is also a lot of legal issues in regards to each of the terms and fine points.
Trademark - protect words, names, symbols, sounds, or colors that distinguish goods and services from those manufactured or sold by others and to indicate the source of the goods. Trademarks, unlike patents, can be renewed forever as long as they are being used in commerce.
Patent - a property right granted by the Government of the United States of America to an inventor “to exclude others from making, using, offering for sale, or selling the invention throughout the United States or importing the invention into the United States” for a limited time in exchange for public disclosure of the invention when the patent is granted.
Trade Secret - information that companies keep secret to give them an advantage over their competitors
There is also a lot of legal issues in regards to each of the terms and fine points.
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The bigger issue IMO is whether or not Cold Steel was given permission by Andrew Demko to use his design. Like I said...I held the custom version of this knife. The Wave feature is an after thought at this point. If I recall correctly from my conversation with Andrew, he agreed to stop making it with that type of opening device after he was approached by Emerson. I don't think Andrew would have allowed CS to make the knife with the pseudo-wave feature.
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If you do a patent search and read the patent it seems black and white to me that Lynn just stole it.
The last paragraph covers it in my mind.
"While certain specific relationships, materials and other parameters have been detailed in the above description of preferred embodiments, those can be varied, where suitable, with similar results. Other applications, variations and ramifications of the present invention will occur to those skilled in the art upon reading the present disclosure. Those are intended to be included within the scope of this invention as defined in the appended claims."
And the first too for that matter:
"A folding knife that is self opening when removed from a container such as a holster or pocket. The knife includes a handle and a knife blade with the blade hinged to the handle for folding from an extended, use, position to a stored position in a slot in the handle. A pin is formed on the knife blade adjacent to the hinged end, extending away from the blade when the blade is folded. When the knife is pulled from a container, the pin will snag the container just before the knife is fully removed, causing the blade to unfold to the use position. Preferably, the pin is hook-shaped with an end extending along the blade towards the blade tip. A releasable locking arrangement to lock the blade against folding while in use and for releasing the blade when desired for folding is preferably included."
Emerson Wave Patent # 5,878,500
http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-...d=ptxt&S1=5,878,500&OS=5,878,500&RS=5,878,500
STR
The last paragraph covers it in my mind.
"While certain specific relationships, materials and other parameters have been detailed in the above description of preferred embodiments, those can be varied, where suitable, with similar results. Other applications, variations and ramifications of the present invention will occur to those skilled in the art upon reading the present disclosure. Those are intended to be included within the scope of this invention as defined in the appended claims."
And the first too for that matter:
"A folding knife that is self opening when removed from a container such as a holster or pocket. The knife includes a handle and a knife blade with the blade hinged to the handle for folding from an extended, use, position to a stored position in a slot in the handle. A pin is formed on the knife blade adjacent to the hinged end, extending away from the blade when the blade is folded. When the knife is pulled from a container, the pin will snag the container just before the knife is fully removed, causing the blade to unfold to the use position. Preferably, the pin is hook-shaped with an end extending along the blade towards the blade tip. A releasable locking arrangement to lock the blade against folding while in use and for releasing the blade when desired for folding is preferably included."
Emerson Wave Patent # 5,878,500
http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-...d=ptxt&S1=5,878,500&OS=5,878,500&RS=5,878,500
STR
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buckg said:
buckg, are you a patent attorney?
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It only need be 'not obvious' to be considered for a patent. Obviously once it is patented everyone says, " wow, wish I'd thought of that" so it becomes obvious at that point. You misread something.
Patents are protected and in my mind Ernie has every right to sue him for patent infringement. Jumping into something like that is no small deal financially though especially tackling someone like LT because he is just a big enough a$$ to think he is perfectly legit in using the Wave and fight over his use of it just like he has done other times in the past.
Knowing what I know now about this guy I'm ashamed I ever sent him or his company a dime.
STR
Patents are protected and in my mind Ernie has every right to sue him for patent infringement. Jumping into something like that is no small deal financially though especially tackling someone like LT because he is just a big enough a$$ to think he is perfectly legit in using the Wave and fight over his use of it just like he has done other times in the past.
Knowing what I know now about this guy I'm ashamed I ever sent him or his company a dime.
STR
