Cold Steel "borrowing" Emerson's wave openly. See pics!

What STR said plus the Maxx is tip-down. Camillus and a couple or CRKT's can be waved open, but they weren't designed that way. Like I said before, Camillus is tip-down, and CRKT also recommends the M16 and M21 to be clipped in a tip-down position.
 
STR said:
See this is where I differ with you orthogonal1. There is nothing wrong with the Cuda Maxx. The difference is this. Camillus is not promoting it and showing video clips of how it works as a Wave. Advertising it as such is crossing the line. The fact that some come up accidentally that can or cannot work like a Waved folder has been discussed but its kind of hard to make it a case against a knife like the Kershaw when it is set up from the factory for tip down carry. Its kind of hard to call foul against the Cuda when no one is touting it as such also.

We all knew that the Ti Lite worked kind of like an "underground" Wave and suspected that LT knew exactly what he was doing by it and no one said much when it was not brought to the forefront of everyones' attention. Cold Steel's promotions of it and video clips of it working as a Waved folder without permission to do so from the holder of the intellectual property is the difference and where Lynn has clearly violated Ernie's rights for the patent.

STR
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The resolution of the legal issue presented in this thread depends in large part on the actual patent claim filed by Emerson.

Functions cannot be patented, but tangible parts and steps, which can be patented, are often described in patent claims by a partial disclosure of such parts and steps plus a description of the function to be performed.

This means of describing an invention allows disputes over whether a second product is the "equivalent" of the patented product - something that performs substantially the same function in substantially the same way to obtain the same result.

The objective of the law is to protect the patent holder from trivial or insubstantial changes in the patrented product based on technology not available when the patent was issued. (Variations based on already-existing technology should have been described in the patent claim for the original product.)

Simple, yes? :p
 
Ah, "simple?"

No. Else we wouldn't need (well, someone thinks we do) lawyers.

But, I'm still thinking it is not a violation.

Personally, I wish the function was not displayed in video form. It could give a prosecutor evidence of intent in a criminal trial (paranoid, eh).
 
It's Lynn and Cold Steal.....what else can you say.

I'm gonna go read the article again where Lynn poo-poos the karambit and how worthless it is.
 
BuckG said:
A patent must be non-obvious to be enforcible. Opening a knife by hooking a blade mounted projection against your pocket is WAY obvious. Cold Steels knife doesn't constitue thievery.
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Thomas Linton said:
buckg, are you a patent attorney?
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No, I'm not a lawyer. I'm a design engineer with several patents. Just because you are granted a patent doesn't mean that it's enforceable. When you sue for patent infringement, you have to show that the patent is granted for something that is "non-obvious". For example, let's say you filed for a patent on a container that has a cylindrical portion for liquid storage and a conical portion to allow for dissolved gas expansion. You might very well be granted a patent. If you then sued beer bottlers for violating your patent with their beer bottles, you would loose because you have attempted to patent something that is "obvious". I use this example because this is exactly what happened in Russia. A group of people patented what is effectively the Vodka bottle and then tried to extract royalties from the vodka bottlers.

I believe this is exactly the scenario that Emerson's patent falls into with respect to the Ti-Lite. How can Emerson's wave patent preclude Cold Steel from mounting the quillions on the blade of a folding knife? Quillions have been around since ancient times and CS is not the first to mount them on the blade. If putting the quillions on the blade of a folding knife enables you to perform the wave function, then the wave is "obvious" and not enforceable with respect to the Ti-Lite. This is how patent law works. Of course all of this is supposition until Emerson actually sues someone to enforce their patent. A court would have to rule and there's no guarentee they would see it as I've described it. But this would undoubtably be the defense that Cold Steel would use, and I believe that it has significant merit. Had CS used a structure on the blade other than the quillions, then there might be grounds for a lawsuit. As it is, it would be a real stretch to conclude that Emerson's patent extends to blade mounted quillions since blade mounted quillions pre-date Emerson's patent.
 
Its conveniently called a quilion on the Ti Lite just to fool people like you and I believe any rational person can see LT's past behaviors and put two and two together here. The quilioin is not the issue btw. The issue is advertising it as an opening device to catch on the corner of a pocket as the knife is pulled out. A device that happens to be patented by Ernest Emerson. Have you even watched the video advertisements from both Emerson and Cold Steel? If you can watch those Wave Demos and the Cold Steel More Proof video of the Ti Lite and then say you think LT isn't guilty of anything other than a blatant theft of an opening device I have to wonder about you.

STR
 
buckg said:
No, I'm not a lawyer. I'm a design engineer with several patents. Just because you are granted a patent doesn't mean that it's enforceable. When you sue for patent infringement, you have to show that the patent is granted for something that is "non-obvious". For example, let's say you filed for a patent on a container that has a cylindrical portion for liquid storage and a conical portion to allow for dissolved gas expansion. You might very well be granted a patent. If you then sued beer bottlers for violating your patent with their beer bottles, you would loose because you have attempted to patent something that is "obvious". I use this example because this is exactly what happened in Russia. A group of people patented what is effectively the Vodka bottle and then tried to extract royalties from the vodka bottlers.

I believe this is exactly the scenario that Emerson's patent falls into with respect to the Ti-Lite. How can Emerson's wave patent preclude Cold Steel from mounting the quillions on the blade of a folding knife? Quillions have been around since ancient times and CS is not the first to mount them on the blade. If putting the quillions on the blade of a folding knife enables you to perform the wave function, then the wave is "obvious" and not enforceable with respect to the Ti-Lite. This is how patent law works. Of course all of this is supposition until Emerson actually sues someone to enforce their patent. A court would have to rule and there's no guarentee they would see it as I've described it. But this would undoubtably be the defense that Cold Steel would use, and I believe that it has significant merit. Had CS used a structure on the blade other than the quillions, then there might be grounds for a lawsuit. As it is, it would be a real stretch to conclude that Emerson's patent extends to blade mounted quillions since blade mounted quillions pre-date Emerson's patent.
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Sound like buckg has a good point. So sounds to me that the patent that Emerson has is, in a way, announcing that "thought" the idea up. The idea is in a way "obvious" and may be difficult to actually defend in court. Not to mention it will cost a lot of money too.
Meaning, Cold Steal is violating the patent because Lynn is in no fear of getting sued.
Still, I believe he shouldn't do it because it was Emerson's idea and I don't think he as an agreement with Ernest. Some people are able use other people trademarks and patents by literally asking permission. So LT is doing wrong to Emerson and his own customers.
Someone can still be wrong even if nobody catches you or because nobody enforced it upon you.
 
"Of course all of this is supposition until Emerson actually sues someone to enforce their patent."

Has Emerson ever done that?

I don't see why so many people are getting their shorts in a bunch over this. If you like the Cold Steel knives, buy them! If Emerson sues and wins, he'll get the money! If he doesn't sue, it must not be that important to him so why should it be important to you? "Honor?" When I hear people talking about "being honorable" I start to feel like a lonely sheep on Brokeback Mountain. In other words, I have a nasty suspicion I'm about to get screwed.

Forget about all this personal crap. If you like a knife, buy it. If you don't pass by it. I seriously doubt any of you spent any amount of time worrying about the character or integrity of the Auto company CEO when you bought your last car, why is this different?

I don't much care for Lynn Thompson but I love my Trailmaster!
:)
 
You are of course correct. It isn't our business really. However, I remember a time when people felt strong enough about what is right or wrong to stand up for someone when they have been wronged instead of turn a blind eye to it. Ernie is a soft spoken gentleman that does things the 'right' way. Anyone that knows him and sees the wrong that is done to him in this particular case will appreicate my feelings about LT stealing from him. If you don't that is fine also I mean my values should not necessarily be yours. Do what you like. I liked my Master Hunter just fine and it was in fact a great knife. I still gave it away though when I saw the true colors of the scumbag owner of the company that made it.

If society was quicker to condemn obvious wrongs and violations of their fellow man when some bully strolled in and just did what he wanted regardless of consequences it would make people realize you just can't get away with behaving that badly without repurcussions. Apparently Lynn has society pegged and knows they really don't give a damn that he is a blatant thief.

STR
 
If only life were so black and white and personalities came in only "Good" and "Bad" with no ambiguous grays. If Lynn Thompson was the demon he's being painted as in this thread, and Ernie Emerson was the sainted martyr he's being painted as, taking a stand for GOOD VERSUS EVIL might mean something.

But the sad truth is, Ernie isn't really a saint and Lynn isn't really a demon so "taking a stand" becomes more a case of deciding which public persona you like best. In other words, a popularity contest.

Ernie has all that distinguished gray hair and an athletic build, looks good in a NSW polo shirt, has an authoritative voice and winning manner, and his character flaws are less obvious to the casual observer.

Lynn is a fat and unkempt slob seldom seen without some food item stuck in his face. He makes no excuses, offers no apologies, and wears his flaws on his sleeve with utter lack of regard for anyone else's opinion. He figures making a good product is all people should care about and by and large, he's right.

(You see, I know both of them as well.)

If you want to discuss more ambiguity in the issue, consider the issue of "patent trolls." Patent trolls are people/corporate entities who specialize in patenting ideas and concepts rather than concrete inventions. They then settle back and wait for technology to catch up with their imagination and they sue the poor schmuck who independently invented the concept they'd already patented. Patent trolls hit Microsoft for about $500,000,000 last year and nearly closed down the company responsible for "Blackberry" technology. These are both clear cases of patent abuse and misuse run wild.

So when some one protests that Emerson's patent covers the concept in any and all possible variations, including variations that Emerson may not have yet thought of on their own, they start creeping pretty close to the boundaries of patent troll territory.

Look around your home. I'll bet you have a lot of items in your home that were made in either Japan or China and yet both of those countries have long and visible histories of flagrantly disregarding U.S. patents at their convenience. If you own a Japanese made stereo, VCR, or DVD player, you own a device utilizing pirated technology. Technology created by Americans and ripped off by foriegn interests who profit from the money you spent buying their products.

Does that make you a bad person? Should you now root through your belongings in an effort to purge your home of devices taking advantage of patent violation? Hardly. I don't expect you to do that and its probably a good thing I don't because I feel pretty sure you're not going to.

But when it comes to knives and knife makers, and manufacturers, people in the forums want to get bent all out of shape about it and create a Grand Cause. Its all just a bit of drama generated on an Internet discussion forum for the sake of a few moments tittillation. This is why you see me posting with less than 10 posts (I'll probably stop posting and wander away again before I get to 10.) and using the name "Buster Bodine." I was once a regular here (one of the first 1000 to come over from Knifeforums) and got tired of exactly this sort of thing. I logged off and stayed off for a number of years until I had a specific question about an Internet dealer and realized that members here would have the information I needed.

That is, to me what discussion forums are meant for. The passing of relevent and timely information to those who need it. Not this constant creation of needless battles to be won, imaginary dragons to be slain, and half naked avatar damsels to be saved.

Sorry for the long rant, I just see this constant creation of turmoil for the sake of turmoil as fruitless and frustrating. It creates endless division and disruptive clique-ishness within a group of people that needs desperately to work together if they have any hope of keeping their chosen area of interest alive in the future.

P.S.
"STR" I am not trying to lay all of this at your feet. God knows neither you nor I are neither the cause or the solution to the problems mentioned above, I just wanted to take a moment to inject a little even handed common sense to this discussion and I hope I have managed to dampen the flames rather than fed them.
 
STR said:
Its conveniently called a quilion on the Ti Lite just to fool people like you and I believe any rational person can see LT's past behaviors and put two and two together here. The quilioin is not the issue btw. The issue is advertising it as an opening device to catch on the corner of a pocket as the knife is pulled out. A device that happens to be patented by Ernest Emerson. Have you even watched the video advertisements from both Emerson and Cold Steel? If you can watch those Wave Demos and the Cold Steel More Proof video of the Ti Lite and then say you think LT isn't guilty of anything other than a blatant theft of an opening device I have to wonder about you.
STR
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It's interesting that you should feel this way because I saw knives in Mexico years ago that were almost identical to the Ti-Lite, right down to the ridges on the blade mounted quillions. The ridges were intended to allow the quillions to be gripped with the thumb or forefinger. These knives were not an attempt to violate Emerson's patent since they pre-dated Emerson's patent by many years. One design that I thought was very nice had the quillions attached to the blade with a pivot pin so that they folded up when the blade was folded. Any of these knives could have been "waved" like the Emersons but I don't remember anyone maketing that. I remember the quillions being considered like thumb studs. Your objections seem to center on the way the knife is advertised, not on the design of the knife. I've seen the "More Proof" video. It's a highly entertaining propaganda film. Excuse me, I mean highly entertaining advertisement. Was the Ti-Lite created to get around Emerson's patent? I don't know. Given the advertising, we can hypothesize "yes", but I think you'd have to ask Phil Boguszewski since he collaberated with CS to design the Ti-Lite. Phil is a highly respected custom knife maker. Why aren't you accusing him instead of Cold Steel? Could it be that he had no intentions of ripping off Emerson and Cold Steel discovered that the knife could be opened this way? I'm not saying I have any answers to these questions. And I'm not saying that Cold Steel isn't trying to rip off Emerson with this new AK-47 design. In my opinion, it is a far better candidate for this argument than the Ti-Lite. I think that what IS going on here is that you, sir, have a beef with Cold Steel and you see the Ti-Lite as just one more reason to hate Cold Steel. I like my Ti-Lite VI and Emerson does not sell a similar knife, as far as I know. Not even one close to it. Should Cold Steel be paying a licensing fee to Emerson for the Ti-Lite? Perhaps, but for public relations reasons, not legal reasons. The world is a cruel place and getting around patents is a very old practice, one that generally does not produce hatred towards those who do. That's the way the world works. The history of firearms in the 19th century is full of stories like this. Today's semiconductor industry has many similar stories. That's where terms like "reverse engineering" come from. It's generally not considered dishonorable or sleazy.
 
Buster Bodine said:
"Honor?" When I hear people talking about "being honorable" I start to feel like a lonely sheep on Brokeback Mountain. In other words, I have a nasty suspicion I'm about to get screwed.
:)
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Well, if this truly reflects your views on the situation then I really do feel sorry for the people you associate with. And for the record, the guys were screwing EACH OTHER not the sheep.

I'd rather buy a CS product with the name of whoever actually makes the knives rather than CS' name. This is also not the first time Lynn has stolen intellectual property from someone else. The man is a theif and a loser of the first order.
 
SpyderJon said:
Well, if this truly reflects your views on the situation then I really do feel sorry for the people you associate with. And for the record, the guys were screwing EACH OTHER not the sheep.

I'd rather buy a CS product with the name of whoever actually makes the knives rather than CS' name. This is also not the first time Lynn has stolen intellectual property from someone else. The man is a theif and a loser of the first order.
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And the fact that you read that entire post and that little snippit is all you found worthy of comment, and then you mis-interpreted even that, is a perfect example of why I quit visiting this place and places like it a long time ago.

Logging off again, I may be back with another question sometime around 2010

Cya.
 
Maybe I just take honor more seriously than others. I read the whole thread, and the part I quoted was the only part I cared to deal with. But please, don't let the door hit you on the way out!
 
think that what IS going on here is that you, sir, have a beef with Cold Steel and you see the Ti-Lite as just one more reason to hate Cold Steel.
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I have a beef with the actions of the owner yes. If you have read any of my past posts you know I supported CS for years. Since the company was formed in fact, I have supported them. I was a bit upset when I saw the copy cat productions made and the blatant stealing of the axis lock but Ernie happens to be someone I care about so yes it bothers me more to see him robbed unjustly. When I approached him with my request he thought about it, dwelled on it and gave me permission to do Waves. When Spyderco approached him he did the same thing and in the end gave them a license agreement to do even more down the road. Chances are he would have done the exact same thing for Lynn but Lynn didn't even bother to ask. That speaks volumes to me.

As for the honor question: I believe a man should do what he says he is going to do when he says he is going to do it. When someone contacts me for a job do you think if I was less than an honorable person that people would gladly allow me to work on knives of theirs in value anywhere from $30 beater uppers to the finest customs made? Being a good man means a lot to a lot of people around here. I've seen evidence of it in the for sale forums. Newbies have a tougher time selling just for the reason of not establishing 'credibility'. Nuff said.

Rest assured that Lynn will continue on his present course but if I've learned anything in this life it is that what goes around comes around. Regardless of how we feel or any comments made by us the energy he created will come back to him full circle. I'm sure he'll scream loudly enough from the pain he brings to himself when it happens even if we don't get to hear it.

STR
 
[quote[I think that what IS going on here is that you, sir, have a beef with Cold Steel and you see the Ti-Lite as just one more reason to hate Cold Steel.[/quote]

Even if we let the ripping off of the Wave slip, there's still the matters of the AXIS lock, the Black Talon (Spyderco Civilian ripoff, including infringment of the reverse S-curve blade), and the Black Sable (Brian Tighe ripoff).

No, I think it's pretty clear what kind of a man Lynn is, and he's not the kind I'll ever give any of my money to.
 
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