Cold Steel Recon Tanto

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Tony_A said:
Cold Steel has made roundabout references to Strider knives other times in print. Below is a cut+paste from one of their "Riposte" articles on their website.

It's in the one titled:

RIPOSTE--2003 Blade Show
The Karambit "It Ain't All That!" (Fall 2003):

(The bolding of the text was done by me)



So this year at the Blade Show we were appalled by the profusion of attendees,
and exhibitors alike pretending to be ex-military “High Speed Operators”. It was
so easy to spot them. All you had to do is look in the aisles or booths along the walls
for smug faced men dressed head to toe in black or cammo “utilities” with their pant
legs bloused into jump boots and wearing fearsome logos emblazoned on their
backs.
We despise these dogs. They are without shame and are only too happy to dupe
a gullible public into believing they or their knives are somehow endorsed by the
military. We also refute their claims to being experts on knife manufacturing or knife
fighting based on military experience as totally unfounded. You see, our ground
troops, including the most elite special units, fight almost exclusively with firearms
and sadly, receive little or no training in knife fighting.
So the next time you see someone at a gun or knife show dressed in a pseudo
military costume selling two tone, spray painted battle blades with “de rigeur” para
cord wrapped handles, know him for the charlatan that he is.
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Parts of what they said, in the quoted text above, certainly makes me believe they had some information that was not yet commonly known, back in 2003.

Regards,
3G
 
3Guardsmen said:
Unless I'm mistaken, hasn't Cold Steel always contended that their Recon Tanto was a more affordable version of their original Tanto line (as in the Magnum Tanto)?
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That was the original Recon Tanto, which was a bead-blasted version of the original Tanto and sold for around $50.00 while the original Tanto went for $100.00 or more in the late 1980s.
 
Right, That's when I bought both of mine. I Don't recall what Striders top seller was then.
 
The Recon tanto has the Loveless Grip designed by my Mentor Bob Loveless, along with the American style Tanto Blade. The CS Tanto (Magnum does not have this feature). And yes, Bob Lum is considered the father of the American Tanto. Bob Lum was also a friend of Bob Loveless. (LYNN Thomson is not!) Or an other Custom Maker for that matter.

They have also ripped off the Most Famous of all time Loveless Knives. The Loveless Big Bear. They call it the Black bear. It is a very POOR copy of what would be a 25,000 dollar knife if a real Loveless!
Here is a Pic of a Lovett-Loveless Connection sit. The Big Bear, 7/1/2 Subhilt, and The Jr. Bear. I don't have a pic of the CS. looks like crap anyway.

13720009.jpg
[/IMG]
 
I don't think it even ends there with the Loveless copies. The CS Master Hunter sure looks like a Loveless Drop-Point Hunter rip-off......

Really, I'm more than a little pissed at all of this. When I first got into knives, Cold Steel was one of the first companies I bought from. (pre-internet days)

Now I regret giving all that $$$$ to a company that is nothing more than a cheap, parasitic copy of other people's innovation and hard work.

I'm older + wiser now yes, but still pissed that I once believed their lies :mad:
 
Tony_A said:
I don't think it even ends there with the Loveless copies. The CS Master Hunter sure looks like a Loveless Drop-Point Hunter rip-off......

Really, I'm more than a little pissed at all of this. When I first got into knives, Cold Steel was one of the first companies I bought from. (pre-internet days)

Now I regret giving all that $$$$ to a company that is nothing more than a cheap, parasitic copy of other people's innovation and hard work.

I'm older + wiser now yes, but still pissed that I once believed their lies :mad:
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We all live and learn Tony. Well most of us any way!:thumbup: I liked them as well. I still want one of the original CS Bowies that were ground by Jim Merritt, before he became Bob's partner in the Loveless Shop. They were actually ground by hand by a Real American! Man how the thimes have changed!

Now back to the shop! Another long night!:) In fact I think I'll give Jim a call in the morning. :cool:
M. Lovett
 
Benjamin Liu said:
That was the original Recon Tanto, which was a bead-blasted version of the original Tanto and sold for around $50.00 while the original Tanto went for $100.00 or more in the late 1980s.
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Thank you for the clarification, Benjamin.:)

Regards,
3G
 
Well, I can't deny that they're apparent copies. But CS isn't going to cause someone to settle for a "Black Bear" over the Loveless. If this went to court, what would a ruling likely be? Is the sub-hilt something unique? Or is the blade configuration original? In both cases the answer appears to be, no.

I can understand why someone would say that the CS would be "crap," but there are many of us who aren't accustomed to the subtle beauty and optical nuances found in $2,500 knives...ooops...er...$25,000 knives. The similarities are there, of course, but the Loveless knives cater to one type of client and the Cold Steel to another.


Bears.jpg



subhilt-mod1.jpg


This is a Colin Cox knife with sub hilt.


http://www.arizonacustomknives.com/images/products/2819-1.jpg

This is a Joe Kious knife, which sells for $1,295.


Subhilt.jpg


And this is a $550 Mark Hazen knife.


bmg595d.jpg


And this is a Bear & Son sub-hilt. Even S&W is selling a popular sub-hilt
that looks very much like the others. At what point does a design get legal
protection? And if CS steals designs, why haven't they been taken to court?
 
Confederate: I think it's not so much a question of what is legal from a technical sense, but what is ethical or moral.

There are many people that produce "copies" or whatever someone else's design. The difference is that they are up front about acknowledging the original inventor.

Benchmade calls some of their knives "Osborne," "Pardue," "Ritter," etc, after the original designer. They don't make claims that Benchmade themselves invented those designs like Cold Steel does with the Americanized Tanto.





(Cut + paste from Cold Steel's website: )

"There isn’t a person working in the knife industry today that knows more about the Tanto than Cold Steel does. It was, after all, Cold Steel who invented and popularized this knife style in the early 1980’s"
 
udtjim said:
So many people bash CS that It may deserve its own Forum.:D
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You know, I could have sworn that there was a Cold Steel sub-forum here a few years ago, but it's now gone.

It's not even in the archives section....Wonder what happened? Would they delete an archive?


Edit---Sometime around 2000-2002. It didn't last long, only a few weeks, ten or so pages for the whole sub-forum before it got pulled via CS's "request". Perhaps it was on knifeforums?........ Or maybe I need to drink less ;)
 
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Tony_A said:
Confederate: I think it's not so much a question of what is legal from a technical sense, but what is ethical or moral.

There are many people that produce "copies" or whatever someone else's design. The difference is that they are up front about acknowledging the original inventor.

Benchmade calls some of their knives "Osborne," "Pardue," "Ritter," etc, after the original designer. They don't make claims that Benchmade themselves invented those designs like Cold Steel does with the Americanized Tanto.





(Cut + paste from Cold Steel's website: )

"There isn’t a person working in the knife industry today that knows more about the Tanto than Cold Steel does. It was, after all, Cold Steel who invented and popularized this knife style in the early 1980’s"
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The Japanese have to be cracking up over that one. Just how many centuries did CS mist this by? What BS artist!

Thanks Leatherface! Those are Lovett's rather than Loveless Subhilt, But I HAVE PERMISSION!!! A world of difference. You can read about it here. Under featured artist. Page f I think. They have some killer Loveless Knives there, and a few Lovett Ki knives as well. Well the Lovetts are in the archives. Sold out as usual!

Yes Confederate, it is a unique design. It has been documented time and again. Just about any collector worth his salt knows how the knife came about.

Short course. Many prefer a dagger for the penetration. Many prefer the bowie for its slashing ability. Bob put the two together to build the Loveless Fighters. The sub-hilt is similar to what is on fencing foils. But it isn't there for control, but rather to get it out of something that it is stuck into quickly to be able to engage the next target! And yes. He is credited for the design of both features world wide. THAT IS WHY THEY ARE SO HIGHLY COLLECTIBLE!
Get it?;)

There is several others that are unique to Loveless, But I wont say what they are, or how we do it. Just more for CS and others to steal!!!:mad:

Now back to the shop!

M.Lovett
 
so anyone that makes a subhilt fighter for sale has to get permission to use the design and give credit or their an unethical pos???does everyone that sells this design do this??(or 110 design or american tanto or whatever)maybe this thread is headed to WandC
 
Mr. Lovett, I am not understanding your position in this matter. You accuse Cold Steel of ripping off Loveless's work. Any fool can see the similarities between the Loveless design and Cold Steel's rendition, but then again, any fool can also easily distinguish between the fit, finish and execution on the Cold Steel blade as opposed to that of the Loveless. Are you suggesting that folks are buying the Cold Steel blade who would otherwise be buying the Loveless?

And you fail to address the fact that the design elements you cite in the Loveless design that were copied by Cold Steel (which I'll certainly concede) have also been copied by uncounted numbers of other knifemakers, large and small, expensive and inexpensive. You fail to explain why Cold Steel's use of Loveless design elements is MORE objectionable than other knifemakers - folks like Bob Dozier, and Mike Stewart/Bark River, and others mentioned above, have all manufactured knives quite similar in appearance and design to Loveless knives, yet you have mentioned not one word about them?

It strikes me that your personal animosity toward Lynn Thompson/Cold steel is what is informing your posture in this discussion, rather than anything Cold Steel is doing differently than other makers.
 
No God! But if you are going to make an exact copy, don't you think it would be at least common decency to call the designer-maker and ask? Knife makers share designs all the time. But those of us worth a hoot don't blatantly rip off our fellow makers. It is just common decency, and common sense.

And yes, if we wanted to, we could sue the ass off these a-holes if we wished. Way too much trouble. We aren't factories with unlimited funds, or have a bank of attorney's at our beck and call. It's hard to fight a huge corporation. Most of us make very little for our efforts. Stupidity greed, and arrogance is hard to fight as well! Your question, or remark and attitude is a prime example of just how out there some people are. You don't get it at all, and if by any slim chance you did, you would ignore it just to be a jerk. You gotta love Blade Forums. No where else can you find such decent people!
 
Michael Lovett said:
No God! But if you are going to make an exact copy, don't you think it would be at least common decency to call the designer-maker and ask? Knife makers share designs all the time. But those of us worth a hoot don't blatantly rip off our fellow makers. It is just common decency, and common sense.
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Using design "inspiration" without permission or acknowledgement is quite common in other industries - yet you act as though your particular ox is being uniquely gored.

And yes, if we wanted to, we could sue the ass off these a-holes if we wished. Way too much trouble. We aren't factories with unlimited funds, or have a bank of attorney's at our beck and call. It's hard to fight a huge corporation. Most of us make very little for our efforts.
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I hear similar whining from companies in the IT industry about Microsoft, when, in fact, Microsoft is engaged in the same market behavior as other companies - albeit, much more successfully. Your remarks smack of sour grapes, quite honestly.

Stupidity greed, and arrogance is hard to fight as well!
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Not really. It's defeated with facts and logic. I just haven't seen these represented very successfully or clearly in your posts in this thread.

Your question, or remark and attitude is a prime example of just how out there some people are. You don't get it at all, and if by any slim chance you did, you would ignore it just to be a jerk.
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I asked you a reasonable question, requesting that you defend your position with something of substance, and you respond with an unfounded personal attack. You don't know me, sir, and don't have the first clue what I "get" or "don't get" - I just don't agree with you. If you can't understand the difference between someone who doesn't agree with you and someone who doesn't understand you, then it's you who doesn't "get it".

You gotta love Blade Forums. No where else can you find such decent people!
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And I'd say you gotta love it when a knifemaker who makes his livelihood copying Bob Loveless's designs complains when another knifemaker does the same thing.
 
chuckschilling said:
Using design "inspiration" without permission or acknowledgement is quite common in other industries - yet you act as though your particular ox is being uniquely gored.

I hear similar whining from companies in the IT industry about Microsoft, when, in fact, Microsoft is engaged in the same market behavior as other companies - albeit, much more successfully. Your remarks smack of sour grapes, quite honestly.

Not really. It's defeated with facts and logic. I just haven't seen these represented very successfully or clearly in your posts in this thread.

I asked you a reasonable question, requesting that you defend your position with something of substance, and you respond with an unfounded personal attack. You don't know me, sir, and don't have the first clue what I "get" or "don't get" - I just don't agree with you. If you can't understand the difference between someone who doesn't agree with you and someone who doesn't understand you, then it's you who doesn't "get it".

And I'd say you gotta love it when a knifemaker who makes his livelihood copying Bob Loveless's designs complains when another knifemaker does the same thing.
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Well said:thumbup:
 
Michael Lovett said:
No AUS-8 isn't a better steel than carbon-V. Aus-8 is a similar steel to 440-B. Carbon steel is or was in the beginning 1095 Tood steel. Vastly superior.

On a side note, those two knives are knock-offs of.

1. The Lovett Combat Tanto.
2. A Strider Combat Knife

Typical Cold Steel

Mike
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Mike - don't know how you'd go about protecting your designs without a lot of cost in time and money. Can fully sympathise with you being p----d off but remember - "imitation is the highest form of flattery"

and thanks for posting picture of your original - it really is beautiful
 
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