Cold Steel Recon Tanto

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I think it's correct when Michael Lovett said it's a matter of ethics, not legality. Ethics is something that sometimes gets complicated and isn't always clear to people who aren't close to the industry. With all the knives floating around out there, I would be a poor one to judge the matter legally, morally or ethically. In fact, it astounds me as to how many varying views there are. I used to wonder why they offered classes on ethics in colleges and seminaries. How tough could ethics be, I wondered. Should be a slam dunk. But with issues like this, I can see differing views caused by being too close to the issue or too far away. And if someone's not aware of what's available (and often, when), it can be complicated and it can cause hard feelings and outright anger.

P.S. I have to admit I "stole" those Loveless Bear knives, myself. I saved an image to my Photos directory. Since I'll never be able to afford such beauties, the least I could do is save a photo of them. Shoot, I can't even afford the CS versions!
 
Sometimes it comes down to how many ethics one can afford. It's easy for someone with buckets full of money to be picky. Then there is the fine line between ethics and politics. I have no use for the politics of the industry. There are copies of damn near everything that's ever been made, every company does it to some extent. If I like something I buy it if I don't I skip it and let everyone else do the same. Often someone asks a simple question about a product and is lambasted with six pages of politics and opinions that hold no more water than a screen.

As you can see, I too have my own opinions, and as to insults, I consider the source and take it from there.:D Anchors away!
 
Well, I know more about the handgun industry than the knife industry. I know that just about everyone copied the Smith & Wesson revolver pattern and, not only that, the style of individual models. Smith & Wesson's popular 66 stainless .357 mag was soon reflected in almost mirror image in the Taurus 66. The latter, when it came out, wasn't nearly as accurate (still isn't). Taurus put all its money into making its revolver purty, not accurate. As a result, you had a highly polished, fully functional .357 mag revolver that was fine for self defense, but for recreational target shooting, it had problems hitting the broad side of the proverbial barn. Still, it was a fraction of the price of the S&W version and it worked. Tolerances were something that could not be seen with the naked eye and performance suffered.

Rossi and others came along. Then there was Llama, a gun that smelled like cheap steel and oil and the finish looked as though it had been applied with a black magic marker. It was neither attractive nor reliable, yet it sold large numbers in Mexico, where many people couldn't afford anything better. Then Glock came along and suddenly everyone was making plastic gu...er...polymer guns. Lightweight, reliable and inexpensive, at first, anyway, it wasn't long until everyone, including Smith & Wesson, were into the act.

Knives are somewhat removed because of the individual knife makers. It's an industry where originality is awfully hard to define and performance is even more difficult to assess. Some knife makers are producing folding knives that cost hundreds of dollars. Beautifully designed and meticulously hand fitted, they remain very high in demand and can often be sold for as much, if not more, than they were purchased for. But when it comes to performance, it remains only a knife—a premium steel blade (often Damascus or other super grade) and a titanium or inlaid steel frame, artfully done and extraordinarily well crafted. The people who buy such knives often can afford them and many, many more, can't.

It thus becomes a compound issue of what's original, what's not, what's inspired and what's ripped off. Does Cold Steel take any money out of the pockets of custom knife makers, or do they simply provide the "little guy" with the chance of owning something ordinarily out of his reach? True, sometimes the name of the inspired knife or knifemaker is conveyed; other times it's completely ignored, possibly for legal reasons. One scholar noted that no one has ever said anything significant about anything that wasn't already said by some Greek. Even John F. Kennedy "borrowed" his famous saying, "Ask not what your country can do for you...." It was originally (as far as anyone can tell) coined by the Roman orator, Cicero. But who knows where he got it? In short, attribution is one of the most challenging ethical or legal issues in the history of man. Apple sued Microsoft, but Microsoft pointed to references in science fiction that long predated Apple's screen, keyboard and mouse. The famous author Arthur C. Clark was, himself, talking about keyboards and screens at a time when he was still banging away on the keys of a cheap Smith-Corona.

Whatever the outcome, it can't be settled here, at least not in generalities. If anything, it must be discussed on a case-by-case basis, preferably with the input of all parties. And frankly, that ain't gonna happen. Doesn't make it right, but it does make it complicated.


Rossi88-3C.jpg


Looks for all the world like a Smith & Wesson, even down to the cylinder release,
but it's a Rossi. Not at all subtle.
 
The CS issue is confused by the facts that:

1. CS has such a bad reputation here.
2. Some acknowledge (or claim) that not all CS knives are crap.
3. Lots of folks here dislike L. Thompson.
4. L. Thompson appears to many to be easy to not-like.
5. Ethics and legality often diverge from one another.
6. Lots of folks can't afford the 'custom originals' of CS 'copies'.
7. The 'original inventor' design is often obscure, especially in a 'historical' design.
and others...

The arguments often include several of these issues in the same sentence or paragraph, and that looks to some like a rationalization to support a particular argument.

"They make crap, and they rip people off, and LT is such an a**hole anyway...and XYZ came up with that design originally, but then, I couldn't afford an XYZ knife anyway, so they're helping the "little people", but wait LT is such an a**hole anyway..."

And so on...
 
When I met with Lynn Thompson at the Shot show in New Orleans, (I was there with Ted Nugent who handled Lovett Knives in his Bow hunting business at the time.) Lynn Thompson approached me about the combat Tanto. He was excited about it. Of course he later said that it would never sell. Not worth the tooling. This was just weeks before the release. Very typical of Lynn Thompson. I am a very good friend to the man who headed up the grinding dept. of Cold Steel when things were made here. Man, could I tell you stories! Thompson is famous for ripping off Custom Makers. Those of us who work in one man shops, where every dollar counts. These are not Johny come lately companies, but hard working custom makers. Trying to design what will be popular, hard working knives for our customers. If you don't think any of us strive to make something different,and at the same time functional, and useful, you really don't understand what we do at all.

I'll have to admit that it is a challange to design somthing different that is also useful, the old saying is that there isn't anything new under the sun!

But we do pull it off.

I'll try to pull a pic of one tomorrow
Mike Lovett
Maker
The Loveless Connection Knives

Wait a minute. YOU created the Recon Tanto? LT stole it from YOU? He looked at your knife and WEEKS later his was in production? The knife that has been on the market since the late 80's and we are just now hearing this?

I call BS. So does LT. I spoke to him about this thread. The Recon Tanto is tooled from a Magnum Tanto with a black epoxy coating, and the Kraton handle from the SRK. The SRK predates the Recon Tanto. Did he steal that from you too?

And he saw your knife and his came out WEEKS later? Oh, really. I can tell you that taking a knife from design to market in the mass production world takes a lot longer than weeks. You're looking at at least a year or two.

So yea, I'm calling BS.

And as for the Black Bear- the design of the knife was public domain when he started producing it. In several of the past catalogs, he credited Loveless with the original. And as for Loveless himself- HE CALLED LT and congratulated him on the quality of the knife stating "someone finally got it right." I see he said the same thing to you- or did LT steal that phone call away from you as well?
 
I don't really see any similarities between the Lovett Tanto and Recon Tanto other than they are both American tantos with long blades.

I also remember seeing the SRK long before the Recon Tanto and when the Recon Tanto came out thought it was pretty much a tanto version of the SRK.

IMO the Lovett Tanto does look very nice, but it fills a totally different nitche than the Recon Tanto.
 
Wait a minute. YOU created the Recon Tanto? LT stole it from YOU? He looked at your knife and WEEKS later his was in production? The knife that has been on the market since the late 80's and we are just now hearing this?

I call BS. So does LT. I spoke to him about this thread. The Recon Tanto is tooled from a Magnum Tanto with a black epoxy coating, and the Kraton handle from the SRK. The SRK predates the Recon Tanto. Did he steal that from you too?

And he saw your knife and his came out WEEKS later? Oh, really. I can tell you that taking a knife from design to market in the mass production world takes a lot longer than weeks. You're looking at at least a year or two.

So yea, I'm calling BS.

And as for the Black Bear- the design of the knife was public domain when he started producing it. In several of the past catalogs, he credited Loveless with the original. And as for Loveless himself- HE CALLED LT and congratulated him on the quality of the knife stating "someone finally got it right." I see he said the same thing to you- or did LT steal that phone call away from you as well?
Why should you have heard about it? Who the he** are you? I have no Idea. Just now hearing about it.? Well its been talked about in knife circles for years. Along with a lot of other designs borough out by cs. Where the heck have you been, who ever you are?

Stole a phone call. Probably. But I very much doubt Bob ever called LT! One thing is for sure, your trying to stir up old crap that is none of your business. If you have have no dog in this, please stay out of it. I let it rest years ago. If you take LT's wirj for anything, well that's all on you. Most of the knife world doesn't follow your thinking. By the way, that is a Loveless design on the srk handle as well. You just don't get it do you. You would argue with facts right in front of your face. I give up. Not worth my time.
 
blade design is bob lums,handle design is bob loveless so where is the lovett dog in this fight?all the op wanted to know was about was steel and construction or did i miss something?
 
blade design is bob lums,handle design is bob loveless so where is the lovett dog in this fight?all the op wanted to know was about was steel and construction or did i miss something?

Cold Steel bashing is an artform around here, that is all.
There should be a special combination dead-horse and fat man beating smilie to accompany these threads.:rolleyes:
 
But I very much doubt Bob ever called LT! One thing is for sure, your trying to stir up old crap that is none of your business. If you have have no dog in this, please stay out of it. I let it rest years ago.
Hostility rarely is manifested in face-to-face meeting or even in phone calls. Chances are that when you spoke to Lynn yourself, that you were civil for civility's sake, regardless of what you may have thought. The same thing may have been true for Bob Loveless. Whether he made the call or made the comment to Thompson offhandedly, it's possible that there was no conflict. Certainly, the matter is still raising some hard feelings. Still, there should be no "who the hell are you" issues. Each is entitled to his or her own opinions based on the knowledge they have. It's possible to be too close to this issue, just as it's possible to be too far removed.

Lynn Thompson feels very strongly about his products and we, as onlookers, have no idea who is closest to the truth, nor are we necessarily qualified to judge in the matter. As long as it wasn't settled in court or fully debated by both sides in an open forum, it will be difficult to assess. Who is to be believed? And is anyone robbing anyone else?

One doesn't need to be an active player to raise points. This is why ethics is so difficult. Legality quite often differs from ethics and moral correctness, but it's a fallacy to pull rank or pronounce greater knowledge, though you may have it. We have to judge on what we know and what's available, and we can't go on just one side of the issue.


CSReconTanto_1.jpg


desertstormfighters.jpg
 
blade design is bob lums,handle design is bob loveless so where is the lovett dog in this fight?all the op wanted to know was about was steel and construction or did i miss something?

If you would bother to read the entire thread before drawing and firing you would have noticed that I already pointed that out.

Hostility? I don't appreciate be called a lier by anyone who doesn't have the balls to use his or her own name yet put people down, or call others names who don't agree with them. Nothing but a coward as far as I'm concerned. Ever notice that the real knife makers, and real collectors here on the forums use real names. We don't hide behind cute titles. Why? Because we are serious about what we do and take responsibility for what we do.

I don't consider what I said to be pulling rank. I consider it to be exactly what it is. Telling a person to stand up and be a man. If your going to call someone a lier, or to profess all this inside information, at least stand on your own two legs and be up front with it, rather than hide behind your mama's coat tails. There are a lot of the Big Boys on this forum As the old saying goes. If you can't run with the Big Dogs, get off the porch.

The only thing I know of I did wrong is show LT my work in the first place. And I have very right to say so. But I can guarantee you this, I have never made that mistake again. A lot of makers have learned better over the years.
 
so now our screen names are being attacked?? lt made a commercial success of a design from someone else,,are you mad because you didnt do it first? a person who runs with the big dogs shouldnt have been surprised by this(takes more than weeks to set up and folks talk)...it looks like you are not getting a lot of support so why not drop it ....
 
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I don't appreciate be called a lier by anyone who doesn't have the balls to use his or her own name yet put people down, or call others names who don't agree with them.

If your going to call someone a lier, or to profess all this inside information, at least stand on your own two legs and be up front with it, rather than hide behind your mama's coat tails. There are a lot of the Big Boys on this forum As the old saying goes. If you can't run with the Big Dogs, get off the porch.

Everything you wanted to know is right here on BF, Michael:
http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showpost.php?p=4836307&postcount=669
Start here: http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=491925&page=44 and read the rest of the thread.

Regards,
3G
 
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oh snap...great info 3G.

Mike , dont let it get to you bud , anyone who feels that copying another makers design is ok as it has been done in other industries blah blah blah , has more than likely never created something and had it stolen.

Smith & Wesson's popular 66 stainless .357 mag was soon reflected in almost mirror image in the Taurus 66
been around the firearms biz long ?? perhaps not...
how bout a refresher course....

Taurus produced its first revolver, the Model 38101SO, in 1941 and began exporting its revolvers to the U.S. market in 1968 through a series of importers.

In 1970, the Bangor Punta Corporation, then the parent company of Smith & Wesson, purchased 54 percent of Forjas Taurus, allowing the two firearms manufacturers to easily share information regarding design and manufacturing. In 1977, Taurus was purchased from Bangor Punta by its current owners, and its ties to Smith & Wesson were severed.

double snap.
 
I'm always amused by these "I hate Cold Steel" rant threads. People are expending ergs of emotional energy and Lynn Thompson doesn't care if they're alive or dead.
 
To the original question :
or should Cold Steel find another carbon steel to make the knife out of?

Don't you really mean " or should Cold Steel find another carbon steel to have someone else make the knife out of ? " Since they manufacture...well , nothing themselves ?
 
I'm always amused by these "I hate Cold Steel" rant threads. People are expending ergs of emotional energy and Lynn Thompson doesn't care if they're alive or dead.

I think that dead people probably make lousy cutlery customers, so I'd be willing to bet that Lynn Thompson, to some extent, cares whether his prospective customers, not that there are necessarily that many here, are alive or dead.;)

Regards,
3G
 
I like the Recon Tanto as a knife that is good for the money, at least the old Carbon V version, I don't know about the new one since I don't have one.

The design isn't as good as the Original Tanto or the Outdoorsman IMO, but they cost a lot more and are smaller.

IMO the handle of the Original Tanto is much more comfortable than that of the SRK and Recon Tanto, though the SRK/Recon Tanto handle is OK for the price.

If Lynn Thompson stole the handle design for those two knives, why didn't he steal a better one?
 
I like the Recon Tanto as a knife that is good for the money, at least the old Carbon V version, I don't know about the new one since I don't have one.

The design isn't as good as the Original Tanto or the Outdoorsman IMO, but they cost a lot more and are smaller.

IMO the handle of the Original Tanto is much more comfortable than that of the SRK and Recon Tanto, though the SRK/Recon Tanto handle is OK for the price.

If Lynn Thompson stole the handle design for those two knives, why didn't he steal a better one?

The design of a Loveless knife handle is great, it's Lynn Thompson's implementation of it that is so terrible.

A tapered full-tang between 2 pieces of smooth hand-shaped Micarta, liners, nickle silver bolsters, secured with stainless bolts and nickle silver nuts, all in that classic Loveless shape is an awesome handle. :thumbup:

A rectangular block of soft checkered black rubber forming the handle + guard, secured only by a single hollow rivet---less so. :thumbdn:
 
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