Collecting handmade knives w/ critique, agendas, why? and some truths...

Wow, good thread, and yes, a lot to take in. Just a couple of thoughts.

There are many kinds of collectors as there are many kinds of makers. We need them all. I personally need to ( and I assume most makers agree) be able to sell to as many kinds of collectors and users as I can in order to survive. By survive I mean make knives on a full time basis, pay all my bills and live in a fairly comfortable life style, and do it fairly and honestly.

I divide collectors into different groups; there is what I call the High Profile Collectors, we see them a lot here on this forum. They (you) are very important for many reasons. To me, least of all is the money you spend on knives although that is important. The real reasons I think HPC's are important is their outspokenness. With their outspokenness, a lot of knowledge about the knife world comes out. Knowledge about knife making, collecting, values and trends are conveyed by them. Knifemakers need them for the money they spend but the other things are more important. These are the guys most apt to collect for investment, to make a profit. I think it was Josh Smith that kept track for a while and determined that there were about 20 collectors that bought high end knives from the notable makers and that they mainly made up the secondary market for those same knives. Please don't get me wrong, I do not mean to diminish the importance of high profile collectors but a knife maker cannot depend on just those collectors in order to survive. Sometimes high profile collectors forget that there are lots of other people buying knives and that I and every other maker I know depend upon them for the greatest proportion of our knife sales. We cannot and should not be influenced by only the people we see writing on the knife forums. While I admittedly do not enjoy the privilege of being in a great number of those collections (though I am in some) I have to be able to appeal to as many collectors across the spectrum as I can.

Next in line is the Silent Collector, these guys are less refined in their thinking about knives. They are the guy that can say " I don't know much about art (knives) but I know what I like" These guys make up the greater percentage of the knives I sell. They are less apt to collect knives as an investment. We can't depend on them for information about style or trends but we depend on them for the money they spend. They keep the lights on around here. They enable me to once a while have the time to spend creating something new that I hope the high profile collectors will like.

Next is the Family Heirloom Collector. They don't buy many knives individually, but they buy a lot collectively. He is only going to buy one knife in a lifetime, for himself, and maybe one for each of his kids and then keep them forever, hand them down to progeny. A good forty percent of the knives I make go to them.

Then comes the High End User I don't sell as much them as I used to, most of my customers prefer to just have the knife as apposed to using it.

Most people know that I have a small knife handle business, having that business has allowed me to get to know a lot of knife makers. Since I sell mostly ivory, I have gotten to know many makers on the higher end of knife making. I can say that while many of them have gained some notoriety and even infamy, I don't know a single one that has not made sacrifices (and continues to make them) in order to be able to make knives full time. They consider their ivory purchases carefully because they have to. I have invited several of them up here on hunting and fishing trips. All they needed to bring is a sleeping bag and a rifle, I would take care of the rest, and split the groceries. The answer is always the same. "You know I make knives for a living". Chances are, you drive a newer car than they do. Mine's an '84 Ford flatbed pickup.

Don't feel sorry for them, they are among the happiest people I know. The reason I say what I did above is because I hope when people talk about knife makers, and the knives they make, they keep these things in mind. It's not a lucrative endeavor, there are lots of easier ways to make a buck. Be polite, show some consideration. If you can't find a way to make your point without insulting someone, then perhaps your opinion isn't as important as you thought it was. Knife makers literally put blood, sweat and even some tears (just a little bit) into the craft they pursue. Some of us have made serious life changes to do it, and for someone to just smash away at it because some aspect of it doesn't appeal to them or even for worse reasons like personal aggrandizement is, in my mind, unnecessary and lacking in character.

These comments are not meant for anyone in particular, just internet social interaction in general.

Thanks for taking the time to read this if you did,
Highest regards to everybody here, Mark
 
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Kohai999 said:
Thanks, Joseph....You always say nice things to people, but I know this is from the heart. It means a lot to me.

This would be a good time for us to tell the world that we are leaving our significant others, moving to San Francisco, and getting married.

Paul Long is going to become a minister and do us the honor of officiating our nuptials.

Joe Paranee and Steven Garsson are gay knife dudes and in love.:love_heart:

Best Regards,

STeven Garsson













(those of you who can't take a joke will not get it at all)
Click to expand...



Everyone knows who's pitching :)

Love u 2 buddy
 
Kohai999 said:
Thanks, Joseph....You always say nice things to people, but I know this is from the heart. It means a lot to me.

This would be a good time for us to tell the world that we are leaving our significant others, moving to San Francisco, and getting married.

Paul Long is going to become a minister and do us the honor of officiating our nuptials.

Joe Paranee and Steven Garsson are gay knife dudes and in love.:love_heart:

Best Regards,

STeven Garsson













(those of you who can't take a joke will not get it at all)
Click to expand...

Better have a "safe word," I've seen JParanee's whip skill video! :D
 
You guys are killin' me with the gay knife dude thing, too funny.

To be honest STeven I wish you would post more. When I first came here I wasn't sure "who's who" and as a newbie it was easy enough to misinterpret forum comments at times. Having said that I really look forward to hearing what you have to say on a whole host of topics these days. I've come to think of you kinda like cayene pepper - spicy and not to be taken lightly, maybe not always for everybody, but over-all a great addition to most every dish IMHO!

Cheers...Pete
 
A few people have talked to me about leaving the knife world due to various reasons. I always advice them to just think about what bothers them and not jump to any conclusions and make impulsive decisions. Take your time to figure your own problem out first. Most of us just love knives deep down. I think it would be a shame to leave something that you have liked and been attracted too since you were young.

Good luck on the kids if you guys have any.
 
Mark Knapp said:
Wow, good thread, and yes, a lot to take in. Just a couple of thoughts.

There are many kinds of collectors as there are many kinds of makers. We need them all. I personally need to ( and I assume most makers agree) be able to sell to as many kinds of collectors and users as I can in order to survive. By survive I mean make knives on a full time basis, pay all my bills and live in a fairly comfortable life style, and do it fairly and honestly.

I divide collectors into different groups; there is what I call the High Profile Collectors, we see them a lot here on this forum. They (you) are very important for many reasons. To me, least of all is the money you spend on knives although that is important. The real reasons I think HPC's are important is their outspokenness. With their outspokenness, a lot of knowledge about the knife world comes out. Knowledge about knife making, collecting, values and trends are conveyed by them. Knifemakers need them for the money they spend but the other things are more important. These are the guys most apt to collect for investment, to make a profit. I think it was Josh Smith that kept track for a while and determined that there were about 20 collectors that bought high end knives from the notable makers and that they mainly made up the secondary market for those same knives. Please don't get me wrong, I do not mean to diminish the importance of high profile collectors but a knife maker cannot depend on just those collectors in order to survive. Sometimes high profile collectors forget that there are lots of other people buying knives and that I and every other maker I know depend upon them for the greatest proportion of our knife sales. We cannot and should not be influenced by only the people we see writing on the knife forums. While I admittedly do not enjoy the privilege of being in a great number of those collections (though I am in some) I have to be able to appeal to as many collectors across the spectrum as I can.

Next in line is the Silent Collector, these guys are less refined in their thinking about knives. They are the guy that can say " I don't know much about art (knives) but I know what I like" These guys make up the greater percentage of the knives I sell. They are less apt to collect knives as an investment. We can't depend on them for information about style or trends but we depend on them for the money they spend. They keep the lights on around here. They enable me to once a while have the time to spend creating something new that I hope the high profile collectors will like.

Next is the Family Heirloom Collector. They don't buy many knives individually, but they buy a lot collectively. He is only going to buy one knife in a lifetime, for himself, and maybe one for each of his kids and then keep them forever, hand them down to progeny. A good forty percent of the knives I make go to them.

Then comes the High End User I don't sell as much them as I used to, most of my customers prefer to just have the knife as apposed to using it.

Most people know that I have a small knife handle business, having that business has allowed me to get to know a lot of knife makers. Since I sell mostly ivory, I have gotten to know many makers on the higher end of knife making. I can say that while many of them have gained some notoriety and even infamy, I don't know a single one that has not made sacrifices (and continues to make them) in order to be able to make knives full time. They consider their ivory purchases carefully because they have to. I have invited several of them up here on hunting and fishing trips. All they needed to bring is a sleeping bag and a rifle, I would take care of the rest, and split the groceries. The answer is always the same. "You know I make knives for a living". Chances are, you drive a newer car than they do. Mine's an '84 Ford flatbed pickup.

Don't feel sorry for them, they are among the happiest people I know. The reason I say what I did above is because I hope when people talk about knife makers, and the knives they make, they keep these things in mind. It's not a lucrative endeavor, there are lots of easier ways to make a buck. Be polite, show some consideration. If you can't find a way to make your point without insulting someone, then perhaps your opinion isn't as important as you thought it was. Knife makers literally put blood, sweat and even some tears (just a little bit) into the craft they pursue. Some of us have made serious life changes to do it, and for someone to just smash away at it because some aspect of it doesn't appeal to them or even for worse reasons like personal aggrandizement is, in my mind, unnecessary and lacking in character.

These comments are not meant for anyone in particular, just internet social interaction in general.

Thanks for taking the time to read this if you did,
Highest regards to everybody here, Mark
Click to expand...


There's a ton of truth in there.....Thanks for that Mark.
Darcy
 
Mark Knapp said:
Wow, good thread, and yes, a lot to take in. Just a couple of thoughts.

Don't feel sorry for them, they are among the happiest people I know. The reason I say what I did above is because I hope when people talk about knife makers, and the knives they make, they keep these things in mind. It's not a lucrative endeavor, there are lots of easier ways to make a buck. Be polite, show some consideration. If you can't find a way to make your point without insulting someone, then perhaps your opinion isn't as important as you thought it was. Knife makers literally put blood, sweat and even some tears (just a little bit) into the craft they pursue. Some of us have made serious life changes to do it, and for someone to just smash away at it because some aspect of it doesn't appeal to them or even for worse reasons like personal aggrandizement is, in my mind, unnecessary and lacking in character.

These comments are not meant for anyone in particular, just internet social interaction in general.

Thanks for taking the time to read this if you did,
Highest regards to everybody here, Mark
Click to expand...

Hey Mark,

I started this thread, so I'll respond to your bolded area, because I feel like it.

You might not know that I was a tattoo artist for 10 years. I know about the sacrifices...no paid vacation, no health care, no benefits to speak of, other than being free to choose your vocation and follow your dreams. I loved it, but wouldn't want to be living that way now, feast or famine.

My mentor/employer/business partner gave me many nuggets of wisdom...one was "you don't deserve to get paid full pop to learn"....which means, while you are perfecting your craft, you had better be charging a fair price, or you are giving your customer a bad deal.

At least three makers that frequent these forums got more than their asking price on a knife because I thought they undervalued their work, said as much, and in one case, paid 30% more than the quote. In another case, the maker was a friend. I made a significant profit on the the knife when I sold it, and sent him a hefty portion of that profit....just because. It isn't charity....it just seemed to me the right thing to do. I wouldn't presume to judge other collectors who choose to pay what they think is a gimme price, or keep all the profit.

What you see as "smashing away" or the pursuit of "personal aggrandizement" may just be the beholder seeing a boneheaded error and pointing it out because knifemakers are notorious for being "too close" to their work, and not seeing the obvious until it is pointed out, and the way that observation is presented may not seem like the most empathic or compassionate method of doing so, but there are an awful lot of subtleties that disappear on the internet, and sometimes, you just have to shoot straight from the hip.

If it's just a hobby, then maybe nothing should be said....but as a full time job? Pointing out these issues may save the maker some long term grief. We all have our own way of approaching it. I'm a lot harder on myself than anyone else, except maybe my wife sometimes, so there is pretty much nothing anyone is going to say on the forums that hurts my feelings.

The saddest thing on the planet is a maker with a table full of knives at a show, and no sales. Wouldn't some choice words that benefits that maker be worth not having that experience? I think so, and that more than anything else is what motivates a lot of my posts, that might not be all sensitive and pc.

Not taking your post as directed at me at all, we are good, but we also all have a different way of approaching things.

Best Regards,

STeven Garsson
 
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Kohai999 said:
Hi Dave,

Glad you found benefit to my scattered thoughts.

You will make mistakes.....some of them will be costly....try to buy knives with money that you can "afford" to lose, not the rent or mortgage money.....I've purchased knives with the rent money....luckily, I loved them and still have them, but I had to borrow money from my boss to do it, and it was embarassing.

Couple other "rules" that bear repeating:

1. NEVER pay for a knife up front that you ordered, unless it is finished, packaged and ready to ship, and the maker has at least stated this in writing.

2. Deposits should not be required for a handmade knife unless it is very expensive material(gold, diamonds...) or the design is so different from the makers' usual offerings, that they will get burned if you cancel.

3. On that note, it is good to push a maker out of their comfort zone, but make sure that the maker is capable of producing the knife to your specs and that you will both be happy. Don't ask a stock removal guy to do a forged bowie, unless they have done it before. You are the customer...you have the responsibility to order from a maker that can produce what you desire.

4. Some makers are extremely personable and good salespeople, some are not.....make sure it is the knife that "speaks" to you, not the maker or dealer's sales pitch.

5. Have some patience....it's a requirement....we don't always get that instant gratification all the time. Practice discipline, it will save you money and help you avoid frustration in the the long run.

6. Try, try so hard not to get caught up in the "hype". Bob Terzuola was making knives for something like 30 years before he got "hot". Stay within your budget. You may be able to truly afford that "grail knife" someday, if not now.

7. Do try to decide what type of knives you like, and what kind of collection you want to have. If you are a knife user....pick something that you enjoy, and learn from it. Decide if you want to use your knives, amass them or collect them. All of this will determine how much money, time and effort you are willing to devote to this hobby/obsession.

8. Knife people are good people....but we have some lemons in there too. Keep your eyes and ears open, and if you are a trusting person by nature, make sure you ask around. This one has saved my bacon on more occasions than I care to think about. Avoided some royal screwings by asking around.

9. HAVE FUN, it is supposed to be fun....if it isn't fun anymore....figure out why, and stop doing it.

10. Keep a log on your purchases....Kevin Jones has some very good thoughts on this subject, do a search for it, that is gold right there!

Best Regards,

STeven Garsson
Click to expand...

As modest collector, I agree completely and I do think that personal relationship between the collector and the knifemaker is the best way to avoid mistakes or sharks.

Anto
 
Well said and said well STeven. I like your writings and your views ( mostly)
Cheers Keith
 
I've enjoyed this thread enough to read & re-read it more than once. There're some real pearls here no matter where you fit into the knife world.

STeven-- I agree with all of your rules and thank you for sharing them. Two that I would emphasize to all new collectors would be to get to know the maker and have fun. Get to know the maker as you're not just buying a product but a piece of the man who has made the knife as well and ALWAYS-ALWAYS have fun with it. Be able to take your purchase(s) out and admire them both tomorrow and for years down the road. If you can't do this then maybe you need to rethink your future purchases.

Gary
 
Steven, I sure would have benefited from some of the thoughts in your post when I first started collecting... That was about 15 years ago... As someone who rarely posts, I should remember to say "thank you" more often to those of you who do... It takes a lot of time to participate with thoughtful posts, and you put yourself out there for blow back if someone is thin skinned, or misunderstands you... I do try to respond when I truly feel I have something helpful to offer someone...

This thread, the one by Coop with his photo recap, and the others, have made for an informative and enjoyable evenings read... Best Regards, Rich Slaughter
 
Kohai999 said:
Hey Mark,

I started this thread, so I'll respond to your bolded area, because I feel like it.

You might not know that I was a tattoo artist for 10 years. I know about the sacrifices...no paid vacation, no health care, no benefits to speak of, other than being free to choose your vocation and follow your dreams. I loved it, but wouldn't want to be living that way now, feast or famine.

My mentor/employer/business partner gave me many nuggets of wisdom...one was "you don't deserve to get paid full pop to learn"....which means, while you are perfecting your craft, you had better be charging a fair price, or you are giving your customer a bad deal.

At least three makers that frequent these forums got more than their asking price on a knife because I thought they undervalued their work, said as much, and in one case, paid 30% more than the quote. In another case, the maker was a friend. I made a significant profit on the the knife when I sold it, and sent him a hefty portion of that profit....just because. It isn't charity....it just seemed to me the right thing to do. I wouldn't presume to judge other collectors who choose to pay what they think is a gimme price, or keep all the profit.

What you see as "smashing away" or the pursuit of "personal aggrandizement" may just be the beholder seeing a boneheaded error and pointing it out because knifemakers are notorious for being "too close" to their work, and not seeing the obvious until it is pointed out, and the way that observation is presented may not seem like the most empathic or compassionate method of doing so, but there are an awful lot of subtleties that disappear on the internet, and sometimes, you just have to shoot straight from the hip.

If it's just a hobby, then maybe nothing should be said....but as a full time job? Pointing out these issues may save the maker some long term grief. We all have our own way of approaching it. I'm a lot harder on myself than anyone else, except maybe my wife sometimes, so there is pretty much nothing anyone is going to say on the forums that hurts my feelings.

The saddest thing on the planet is a maker with a table full of knives at a show, and no sales. Wouldn't some choice words that benefits that maker be worth not having that experience? I think so, and that more than anything else is what motivates a lot of my posts, that might not be all sensitive and pc.

Not taking your post as directed at me at all, we are good, but we also all have a different way of approaching things.

Best Regards,

STeven Garsson
Click to expand...

STeven, You have never attacked me personally, not that I know of. I have seen you do it to others, in the old days. I have noticed a change in your critiques in the last few years and to me it's for the better. I, and I know a lot of others, have learned from what you and others have had to say on this forum. It's always better when those critiques are done in a thoughtful manor, be blunt, be to the point, and point out every boneheaded mistake you see but don't embarrass anyone and don't insult anyone. It's just common courtesy. And remember it's still just your opinion, back it up with logical reasons for why you feel the way you do.

What you see as a bone headed mistake may just be your personal taste. If it's just a matter of taste, well there you go, you have to realize we get to hear about a lot of differing tastes. When I hear one guy say you should it this way or that, I mostly ignore it. When I hear three people say it, I start to pay attention. When I hear a bunch of people say something or see a trend, that's when I am compelled to try something new.

Everyone here ought to be able to make a point without personal insults. Everyone here ought to be able to take constructive criticism without getting their feelings hurt if it is given in the right manor. I personally tune out everyone that cannot make their point without personal attacks, and I am sure many others do too. The very best way to make sure everyone ignores what you write is to do it in an insulting way.

We are, after all, adults.

Some of the people that I have seen critiqued harshly on BF are very successful knife makers, without naming names, some of them are sold out on Friday evening of every show. If you call them on the phone to order a knife, you get on the end of a long list, they aren't living high off the hog but that's the nature of the game, they can sell every knife they can make at what many people agree is a reasonable return. So, why do these people need harsh critiques to help them make better knives?

I don't make a style of knife that many on this forum clamor for but I have a backlog that will take me till 2020 to complete if I stop taking orders today. I'm trying very hard not to be a braggart but somebody must like what I am doing.

Again, none of this is meant for you personally. I take your comments in the spirit they were given in, at one time I could not do that. You have no need for my approval but I respect you more now than I once did.

All the best, Mark
 
Mark Knapp said:
STeven,

What you see as a bone headed mistake may just be your personal taste. If it's just a matter of taste, well there you go, you have to realize we get to hear about a lot of differing tastes. When I hear one guy say you should it this way or that, I mostly ignore it. When I hear three people say it, I start to pay attention. When I hear a bunch of people say something or see a trend, that's when I am compelled to try something new.

Some of the people that I have seen critiqued harshly on BF are very successful knife makers, without naming names, some of them are sold out on Friday evening of every show. If you call them on the phone to order a knife, you get on the end of a long list, they aren't living high off the hog but that's the nature of the game, they can sell every knife they can make at what many people agree is a reasonable return. So, why do these people need harsh critiques to help them make better knives?

Again, none of this is meant for you personally. I take your comments in the spirit they were given in, at one time I could not do that. You have no need for my approval but I respect you more now than I once did.

All the best, Mark
Click to expand...

Glad to hear you respect me to some degree, Mark. Respect is earned, not given. I have a heck of a lot of respect for you and hope to purchase one of your .45 survival knives at some point.

Tell you a little story.

Was at a show about 5 years ago....famous maker, top of the food chain. Had two knives of 7 left on the table first day of the show about noon. Big scratch on the bolster. He didn't know it was there. He either missed it at the shop, or it happened at the show, but it was there, and if I saw it and it sold in that condition, you bet the buyer would have noticed it at some point.

Year later, same show, same maker....big folder....big glob of SOMETHING inside the spine.....he missed that too.....a buyer would have noticed it.

The harsh critiques tend to stick in the mind, more than the "gentle ones"....we can all do better...I can write better, work smarter, collect more astutely, look and learn about the industry more, be a better friend and husband.

There are many metrics that can be used to judge success, but I liked Daniel Fairly's response a lot...."is it the very best?"

I'm just trying my best and trying to help others do their best. If they are not striving for the best, there ain't no helping them.....good enough isn't. It just isn't.

The quality of production knives these days is absolutely incredible, there are even some pieces coming out of China that are fantastic. More than ever, handmade knifemakers have to produce something extraordinary in order to remain relevant and in demand. A maker with a 5 year backlog can have that reduced to 6 months in the blink of an eye for a variety of different reasons, some beyond their control, but most are.

Best Regards,

STeven Garsson
 
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I appreciate the varied and informative viewpoints in this thread.

I like that STeven's initial post was considered and 'essay'.

When I first read it there was so much to absorb, and now there is THAT MUCH MORE, and from others input, too.

I'm going to lurk and learn.

Thank you.

Coop
 
Kohai999 said:
Glad to hear you respect me to some degree, Mark. Respect is earned, not given. I have a heck of a lot of respect for you and hope to purchase one of your .45 survival knives at some point.

Tell you a little story.

Was at a show about 5 years ago....famous maker, top of the food chain. Had two knives of 7 left on the table first day of the show about noon. Big scratch on the bolster. He didn't know it was there. He either missed it at the shop, or it happened at the show, but it was there, and if I saw it and it sold in that condition, you bet the buyer would have noticed it at some point.

Year later, same show, same maker....big folder....big glob of SOMETHING inside the spine.....he missed that too.....a buyer would have noticed it.

The harsh critiques tend to stick in the mind, more than the "gentle ones"....we can all do better...I can write better, work smarter, collect more astutely, look and learn about the industry more, be a better friend and husband.

There are many metrics that can be used to judge success, but I liked Daniel Fairly's response a lot...."is it the very best?"

I'm just trying my best and trying to help others do their best. If they are not striving for the best, there ain't no helping them.....good enough isn't. It just isn't.

The quality of production knives these days is absolutely incredible, there are even some pieces coming out of China that are fantastic. More than ever, handmade knifemakers have to produce something extraordinary in order to remain relevant and in demand. A maker with a 5 year backlog can have that reduced to 6 months in the blink of an eye for a variety of different reasons, some beyond their control, but most are.

Best Regards,

STeven Garsson
Click to expand...

Fair enough. Those are good examples. Of course those examples differ greatly from things like critiques on style, or material choices. I think we understand each other pretty good now. On the 1911 knife, I'll have to make extra sure no lint falls into the Duracoat on yours. :D
 
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Jon Brand said:
A few people have talked to me about leaving the knife world due to various reasons. I always advice them to just think about what bothers them and not jump to any conclusions and make impulsive decisions. Take your time to figure your own problem out first. Most of us just love knives deep down. I think it would be a shame to leave something that you have liked and been attracted too since you were young.

Good luck on the kids if you guys have any.
Click to expand...

Jon

Would you like STeven and I to adopt you ?

If that would happen you are guaranteed to have the ugliest mother walking the planet :)
 
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