Collection Liquidation - Profit or Loss?

Hi Stephen

Actually I buy what I like. One of my goals at every knife show I attend is to find a maker I never heard of who's work I will buy. The name on the knife means very little to me if the pricing does not reflect the makers position in the market. As I know from experience it is only a matter of time before the maker his the slippery slope of the 4th stage of the product life cycle.

One advantage I do have over most collectors is that I can identify a maker. Influence their work to take advantage of what the market place is looking for. As well I can influence their pricing structure to provide their knives with a value price. Also, I can influence their position in the market with my extensive marketing ability.

I eliminate "bubbles" and create realistic "expectations" in both the makers and the collectors.

Granted I am in a different position than most collectors. But I started out as a collector and very early on after wasting thousands of dollars. I stared to expect more out of my ability to judge knives and the makers abilities with regards to all aspects of their knife making.

Yes, it required "work" but more importantly the required passion. Contrary to what some people think, I am not in this just for the money. I do this because I worked my way into a position to where I get paid to do something I would do for free.

WWG
 
Kevin Jones said:
Peter, if the Sendero (or whatever knife) is consistently being sold for $1900 by the maker (whatever maker), then some collectors start dumping them at $1400 thus lowering the market price this equals a $500 lost per knife to all current Sendero collectors .
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Kevin,

You keep moving the goal posts on me. Instead of an individual sale, now you are discussing a clear downward trend. Yes, if that happened AND you decided to promptly dump your Sendero at $1,400, you would realize $500 less for it than if you had PERFECTLY timed the market high for the knife and sold it for $1,900.

Just curious, is it written in stone somewhere that the next knife from Jerry Fisk (or anybody else) will always sell for a higher price than the last one? Is anyone immune from market forces and entittled to raise prices at will?

Again I will ask you, what would you propose to do, in order to prevent such a calamity from occuring? I would really like to know the answer, because if you have one we can start controlling all markets right away and all make a fortune.

Best,

P
 
Stephen F said:
Its Stephen "de Medici" F , you capitalist philistine! ;)

Stephen
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I stand corrected Stephen de Medici Foster. ;) Dang that has a ring to it!

I may be under a mis-impression, but this capitalist philistine seems to recall that you are some sort of transnational VULTURE capitalist specializing in the exploitation of oppressed peoples. I appologize if you have recently changed careers and become a monk.

Best,

P
 
ptgdvc said:
Kevin,

You keep moving the goal posts on me. Instead of an individual sale, now you are discussing a clear downward trend. Yes, if that happened AND you decided to promptly dump your Sendero at $1,400, you would realize $500 less for it than if you had PERFECTLY timed the market high for the knife and sold it for $1,900.

Just curious, is it written in stone somewhere that the next knife from Jerry Fisk (or anybody else) will always sell for a higher price than the last one? Is anyone immune from market forces and entittled to raise prices at will?

Again I will ask you, what would you propose to do, in order to prevent such a calamity from occuring? I would really like to know the answer, because if you have one we can start controlling all markets right away and all make a fortune.

Best,

P
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Peter are you just trying to turn this into something complicated or am I just totally unclear making my point?

Did you really think I was implying that one person selling a single knife at a low price was going to hurt me of Jerry?
I'm referring to the current trend where collectors are selling knives for hundreds of dollars less than they originally paid for them.

Who said anything about controlling markets? All I said was if collectors would put more effort and thought in selling their knives perhaps they would not lose money on them thus help keep knife prices stable on the secondary market. Can we move on?
 
Kevin Jones said:
Peter are you just trying to turn this into something complicated or am I just totally unclear making my point?

Did you really think I was implying that one person selling a single knife at a low price was going to hurt me of Jerry?
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Yes I do, because here is your exact quote:

"If someone sells a $1900 Sendero for $1400 it effects me Jerry and everyone who owns Senderos."

Perhaps we just disagree. Lets leave it at that.

Best,

P
 
After reading this entire thread, I find it compelling to mention the things that cause me to trade paper money for steel knives. I'm often mystified by an almost complete lack of information offered by those who expect to sell for top dollar. Many of us do not consider ourselves to be "collectors" even though we may own what many would consider to be "collections". Our accumulations evolve from an appreciation for the highest art form: art with a use and a purpose that can be empolyed to accomplish a task, even though it may never be so used. Otherwise, we would all collect soft fantasy cutlery.
Accordingly, how often do we see offerings with nothing but a name, a picture, and a price? Where is the steel type, the method of assembly, heat treat protocol, type of grind, maker's intended use category, and a jillion other things that interest knife lovers?
Even makers' web sites mostly lack the information that would justify their price list. Even if a maker's skills and reputation are legendary, I still want to know and how the product compares to others and why I should choose a particular one. The secondary market, I believe, suffers as much as the makers' because a seller cannot pass along information not originally given and most don't seem to believe it's important. A name and a fuzzy photo of a knife will always cause me to search elsewhere.
 
straitshot said:
Accordingly, how often do we see offerings with nothing but a name, a picture, and a price? Where is the steel type, the method of assembly, heat treat protocol, type of grind, maker's intended use category, and a jillion other things that interest knife lovers?
.......... The secondary market, I believe, suffers as much as the makers' because a seller cannot pass along information not originally given and most don't seem to believe it's important. A name and a fuzzy photo of a knife will always cause me to search elsewhere.
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Strait,

You answered your own question. BECAUSE MOST don't believe that it is that important.

When I sell a knife, initially, the steel is listed, most other criteria, and a photo or a scan. WHEN the knife is sold, I include a data sheet that lists what you had asked about, except heat treat protocol, and except intended use, because, if it is a Bowie, for instance, what is the intended use?

Heat treat protocol is outside of the realm of 99% of collectors. If the knife hits the advertised RC, I don't need to know about heat treat protocol.

Best Regards,

STeven Garsson
 
WoodWorkGhost said:
Hi Flava,

I don't have an adverse position against buying what you like. In fact, that is my first rule of "COLLECTING".

The problem comes when "COLLECTORS" try to sell part of their "COLLECTION". Then complain when that part of the "COLLECTION" does not sell for what they thought it would.

As I said earlier too many collectors expect to "Pass the Test" without any study (WORK).

You are the exception rather than the rule, you bought knives (although Im sure some homework was involved) and sold most at break even or a slight profit....Good for you.

WWG
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OK, I see what you mean.
My point was if you buy well made knives for decent prices, and if your taste in knives is not that peculiar, you can expect to break even if you sell them. The only well made pieces where I lost money (not big but still lost) were custom made to my design and very 'particular' pieces indeed. For those it's expected to have a hard time on the market. The 90 days requirement is a hard one though. You may have to sell when the type of knife you are selling is "cold" on the market, and you end up selling low. IMO this is what happened with some of the knives discussed at the begining of this thread. As some mentioned, you have to act like a good salesman and make your product desirable: good description, nice pics, etc ...
It also helps not to buy a knife that is so fashionable that it sells 50%+ over the makers price on the second market (unless you can buy it from the maker or at the maker's price).
 
So, then, what information is important to 99% of knife collectors? What information is requested from sellers by potential buyers to make a purchase decision? I've been offered only one data sheet with a resale knife and it wasn't very informative. Such things as cryo, a carbon differential temper, adhesives used, tapered tangs, and the "jillion" other things that are possible all matter to me when making comparisons and judging value because they are features that demand time and talent (Taiwan hits Rc specs). Otherwise, aesthetics aside, I don't know how much the product is worth to me without regard to resale. I know these points are not available for many of yesterday's knives, but resellers of current knives seldom even make mention of them when easily possible to do so.
Possibly, I'm just too far outside the mainstream... The subject is price, and I see price = value which can be enhanced with information about what makes a knife "custom" vs. production beyond just aesthetics.
 
This is a great thread. Makes me think that I should stop being so lazy and read through the very long "investment" thread Steven has recommended. I tend to agree most with Peter and Les as far as looking at it as a capitalist venture, but my philosophy is more akin to Stephen and Flava.

I just can't imagine myself buying a knife I didn't like because I thought at some point in the future I could make a buck from it. That said I try to buy directly from the maker because he's the person I'm interested in supporting, not necessarily giving a dealer or collector a return, but if it's a special piece then I am willing to buy "high" in order to own the knife in question. I know I've paid $500-$1000+ over what Fowler has sold some blades for but for me collecting is about getting one of these :D and feeling :cool: about a piece.

Anthony, I especially like those Crowell and Cashen Bowies. The Cashen almost looks like it's differentially HT'd...:eek:
 
Jose Reyes said:
I just can't imagine myself buying a knife I didn't like because I thought at some point in the future I could make a buck from it.
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I don't think anyone has suggested that. Indeed buying a knife you like should be the first consideration. Question is, should it be the only consideration.

Roger
 
HI Flava,

Yes, you get it. Interesting that you pointed out that the knives that were slower to sell were ones that had your specifications. In he 80/20 rule these knives would be in the 20% group. This doesn't mean they won't sell, you are just working with a smaller group of people to sell to.

Hi Straight Shot,

You seem very performance oriented wanting to know heat treat info, RC, etc. and there is nothing wrong with that. 90% of custom knife buyers seldom if ever ask those questions. Which is part of the reason that is not discussed when purchasing a knife.

The good news is that you can ask any maker and they will provide that information to you, even if you bought the knife in the after market.

How much a product is worth to you....only you can determine that.

What you are dealing with in this thread is Price vs Value (Cost).

Price is a one time payment.

Cost is what you pay for the length of the time you own the item.

Cost brings into account things such as, fixed and variable costs to purchase the knife (examples, air travel, entry into a show, shipping, etc.).

Cost also takes into account any premiums you pay.

Cost also takes into account the ability of the knife to sell for cost or more.

Example, should a knife sell for more if it has black lip pearl or Mastodon Ivory for the handle material? This is where aesthetics's comes into play, as well as market factors (both present and future). Forget heat treat and Rockwell Hardness, you need to know the difference in "cost" for these two materials. As well how will they affect your ability to sell or trade this knife.

While it may or may not be true, I think most people that buy custom knives give the maker the benefit of the doubt with regards to heat treat and Rc.

Are you under the impression that factory knives have exacting heat treat and Rc for every knife they make. I hope this isn't the case.

WWG
 
RogerP said:
I don't think anyone has suggested that. Indeed buying a knife you like should be the first consideration. Question is, should it be the only consideration.

Roger
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Roger,

I'll bend over to pick up a $100 bill as fast as the next guy, but when it comes to collecting I personally feel that it is the determining question. If someone is trying to make a living at it, or likes the thrill of victory/profit, then it's a different story. Not sure that sounds right. If you have done your homework and can make a profit from knives it's all good. I'm just trying to represent the "buy what I like" collector crowd...:)
 
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