Collection Strategy & Economic uncertainty

I'll stand with Keith on this one. :D

And I'll buy John M. Smith knives...any for sale?


Les - I'm pretty sure you always told me to buy at makers list and sell back to you for less or trade for an even higher priced knife to eventually break even :rolleyes:

Great post by the way.

I'm going back to my hole.
 
Hi Michael,

You don't call, you don't write...I never hear from you any more...sniff, sniff.

What's funny is that most people reading this thread have never heard of John M. Smith (probably most are confusing him with John W. Smith).

Just imagine where John M. would be today if he would have stuck with it. Guess the same can be said for Roger Green as well.
 
I do buy what I like (visually) at first. BUT, before I buy, I will check the maker through posting, email him/her, feedbacks from other collectors. Of course, if he is pain in the a$$, bye2 ... Secondly, I will check his/her product lines / models ... whether original / innovative / creative / appealing / functional etc .. plus I do check market responses (you can read old postings / from other collectors). Third, quality: fit and finish, attention to detail. At this point, it will be on my "buy" list - actually I will buy it. Fourth: collectibility, if it's very very very hard to get it, it will go to my permanent collection. If there are possibilities I can get it in the future, it will go to my circular/moveable/trading collection.

Again there is no guarantee what future will be. If you do not want losing money, you gotta follow and check market all the time (that's if you have time) - forums, dealers, collectors etc --> very time consuming. Luckily, I am working in front of computer more than 15 hours daily, thus checking forums/dealers etc it's kind a "coffee break" for me. Also, I put "cap" on how much I spend on knives (which I have to make sure in case that I lose all of those, it would not hurt me either my feeling or financially).
 
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Keith Montgomery said:
I'm still here.
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+1 here

"Investing" in knives looks like a very slippery slope to me.

I see it as a very enjoyable hobby and therefore buy ony what appeals to me. I do consider the cost and where possible try to buy at what I believe is a fair price although I have broken my own rule and paid way over the odds for something that I simply "had to have".

To me it's an outlet and personal enjoyment that I am lucky to be able to afford.
 
Les Robertson said:
What ever happened to the "Buy What You Like" Club???
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another happy long time member here!

i suspect the BWYL club has more members than you think. but why attract attention on the forums, when all you get is a mocking smile? at least i do not have to re-assess the value of my collection every day. sometimes it's ok to be a bit retarded.

hans
 
John M Smith = Inner city Bowie , yep I do remember.

Well known in the 1990 !

ELDE
 
What ever happened to the "Buy What You Like" Club???

Another happy member here.

If you can really afford a knife as an object, then you don't have to flip them for new ones. The value of your current knives has no bearing on what you can buy now.

I agree with giant1 The Buy What You Like club "consider the cost and where possible try to buy at what [they] believe is a fair price although [they will break their] own rule and paid way over the odds for something that [they] simply "had to have". Although we don't buy something so expensive that our children go w/o shoes :)

The "Buy What You Like" Club" members that buy in the secondary market are estatic at the lower prices, particularly for the "lesser makers" that investors shy from, but us BWYLC members enjoy. The economy is great for us :)
 
First my "what happened to the Buy What You Like Club" was done tongue in cheek.

Second, I know the BWYLC has many members...although they are in decline over the past 6 years. Back then I would get flamed for my blasphemous remarks with regards to custom knives as investments. Many people heard the "I" word and immediately thought I was talking about using custom knives for their "retirement" plans. As opposed to a CD or something like that.

Bright Red wrote:
at least i do not have to re-assess the value of my collection every day. sometimes it's ok to be a bit retarded.
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It's not about re-assessing your collection every day...you should already know the value. Get one of Kevin's excel sheets and you will know at a mere glance what you paid for your knives. Consequently, you will know what the value is. As for being a bit retarded.....

Giant wrote:
I do consider the cost and where possible try to buy at what I believe is a fair price although I have broken my own rule and paid way over the odds for something that I simply "had to have".
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Question giant...what factors do you assess to come up with a "fair" price. I would have to believe that is fairly subjective. As you stated you that kind of thinking is really more of a guideline rather than a rule. If it wasn't you would have violated your own rule.

Brownshoe wrote: The "Buy What You Like" Club" members that buy in the secondary market are ecstatic at the lower prices, particularly for the "lesser makers" that investors shy from, but us BWYLC members enjoy. The economy is great for us.

Glad to see you are enjoying the misery of others who have been affected by a bad economy.

Too many knife buyers (like Brownshoe) do not fully comprehend "investment" grade knives. They, feel that the only knives that can be considered investments are those you make thousands of dollars on. Nothing could be farther from the truth.

Right now what is your bank offering for a CD or what percentage is you Money Market account paying?

If you buy a $250 knife and sell it for $275 you just made 10% on your money.

Given current interest rates would that be a good ROI? Yes, it would.

So to recap, the initial "Buy What You Like Club" considered nothing other than...I like it...I have the money...I buy it.

Now we are seeing people talking about the "after market" and buying knives at a deeply discounted price.

Boys and Girls...talk like that will get you kicked out of the BWYL Club. As you are getting scandalously close to invoking the "I" word in your criteria for knife buying. :D
 
Robertson,

I fully comprehend what buying knives as investments means. I am just not interested in that. Why denigrate those who don't buy for investment? We know the value of knives. We just don't buy a good deal to flip, we buy it if we like the knife and then we keep it.

The Buy What You Like Club knows that you can make 10s, 100s or 1000s depending upon the knife and maker and the initial price. We do our homework so for the knives we like, we know the right price to pay...just like you and the investors. We also know that some of the knives we love the most (like my Dick Atkinson) will never bring more than 50 - 75% of its initial price when we die and they have to be sold. We don't care.

Why shouldn't I be happy when knife prices fall. We aren't responsible for the lower prices and I am sure that the investors who are buying are just as happy as us Buy What You Like guys.

Different strokes...different folks. The knife market needs us all.
 
Les Robertson said:
It's not about re-assessing your collection every day...you should already know the value. Get one of Kevin's excel sheets and you will know at a mere glance what you paid for your knives. Consequently, you will know what the value is. As for being a bit retarded...
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les,

i do not need kevin's excel sheet. i have had one for years, therefore i know what i paid for my knives. this could be important in case the knives are stolen or the house burns down.

you know, i sharpen every second knife i get, regardless of whether it will be used or not, just because there's no decent edge: -20%. i carry almost every knife i buy for some time, even if i know that i won't really use it: -15%. i use a lot of my knives, just to know how they perform and feel in the hand: -50%. some knives become real users: -70%. some are from unknown makers: -60%. i even destroyed one to see how it was built: -100%. i give away knives: -100%...

knives bought: 75; knives sold: 0; satisfaction: 98%; sleepless nights: 0.

there's seems to be a subtle difference between value and price...

hans
 
Brownshoe,

As usual you miss my point. The Buy What I Like Club is a purist group...at least on the internet.

They buy what they like...period.

What I am seeing here are people in the BWIL Club, at least peeking at the after market.

I am not denigrating anyone. My point is now and has been for over a decade that custom knives should hold their value. They should be looked at something that you could make money on...even if it is $5. This is what needs to take place for the markets that so many have talked about reaching (High Dollar Guns collectors, Art Collectors, Safari Club, etc.) In other words the "Higher Dollar Markets."

You wrote:

Why shouldn't I be happy when knife prices fall. We aren't responsible for the lower prices and I am sure that the investors who are buying are just as happy as us Buy What You Like guys.
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No one should be happy that prices are falling.

Contrary to the lesser known makers those whose knives are sought after by "investors" are not being sold at a loss. Investors understand that that it is only a loss if you sell knife. We all know that things will turn around in the next couple of years. As such the knives from the sought after makers are maintaining their prices and will not be sold for a loss.

Three Positive affects that are due to the economy:

1) Reducing/removing over inflated premiums for most knives.

2) Thinning the herd who put their names on waiting lists that were "years" long.

3) Collectors are now doing homework (even those who were in the BWIL Club) prior to purchasing a knife. Part of this homework is at least taking a peek at the makers knives performance in the after market. Once you have done this you have left the BWIL!

Keith Montgomery was the first to chime in that he was a member of the BWIL. You really think that his extensive involvement in the creation of the knife, the materials utilized and the makers chosen has not been affected by this forum and the Internet in general??? Keith is now a Collvestor whether he wants to admit or not.

All kinds of people trying to sell knives on the Internet. Im sure they were in the BWIL Club. You can usually tell who they are. As after the knife has languished on a for sale from for days-weeks. Their last post is that they threaten potential buyers with "If someone doesn't buy it I'll just put it back in the safe!" They have learned an important lesson about buying what you like (with no care of the outside world) when they go to sell the knife.

Brownshoe, Keith, Bright Red, Giant, or anyone else....question.

What is the dollar amount you are willing to lose (you can answer in percentage or actual dollar amount) before you start to consider other factors than just "I Buy What I Like".

I'll Start. The dollar amount for me was $3,500.00 in 1985.
 
Hi Bright Red,

there's seems to be a subtle difference between value and price...
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Actually the difference is between price and cost.

BTW, if you sharpen a knife properly it does not take away from the value of the knife.

A mistake that some people make is changing the edge geometry. Which is put on a knife for a particular reason.
 
I am definitely a member of the BWYL club. However, I am a bargain hunter. I try to never pay too much and stick with the "classics." The classics in the field of gent's folders can get pretty frickin' pricey! I try to buy from makers by either direct order or at shows as much as possible. Lately, I've been having my knives engraved or scrimmed directly by the artists. I've always tried to keep an order or two "in the pipeline", with a maker and an engraver so I have new/new and old/new knives entering my collection all the time.

I have made some fabulous deals over the years by scouring publications and the internet, so guess I'm a collvester as well. But the point is, OVER THE YEARS. I have yet to put out more than $5,000 and most less than $3,000 for a single knife, including engraving. Considering I have at least 17 engravedfolders from Osborne, Kious, Fred Cater, Buster Warenski and Lake (only one each of that latter). I think I'm doing fairly well.

Now I have a confession. I own 2 Ron Lake fillet knives. They are not the most exquisite fillet knives on the planet, but they are quite nice. I bought them for around $250 each. I know a deal when I see it.
 
Les Robertson said:
Brownshoe, Keith, Bright Red, Giant, or anyone else....question.

What is the dollar amount you are willing to lose (you can answer in percentage or actual dollar amount) before you start to consider other factors than just "I Buy What I Like".
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les,

counterquestion: how much money do you LOSE when you buy a bottle of wine, gasoline, a holiday trip, cigarettes, a dog, a psychotherapy, a present for your children?

i do not LOSE money when i use a knife, give away a knife, destroy a knife, or sell a knife, because i SPENT the money before. to me the money is GONE. so, the question is not, how much i am willing to lose, but how much i am able to spend.

hans
 
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I buy what I like. My knives are like my guns, and I have a simple rule for guns-never sell a gun.
 
Though I do consider myself part of the buy what you like club, I agree with Les, I have been studying the aftermarket and researching which maker's knives hold their value the best. I don't always use what I learn from that research, but it's good to educate yourself about such things.
 
Les Robertson said:
Giant wrote:

Question giant...what factors do you assess to come up with a "fair" price. I would have to believe that is fairly subjective. As you stated you that kind of thinking is really more of a guideline rather than a rule. If it wasn't you would have violated your own rule.


Too many knife buyers (like Brownshoe) do not fully comprehend "investment" grade knives. They, feel that the only knives that can be considered investments are those you make thousands of dollars on. Nothing could be farther from the truth.

:D
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You are right my idea of a fair price is very subjective. All I can do is try to ascertain the current value of a knife that I am interested in by looking at the for sale forums and vendors sites on the internet. It's not bullet proof but you can get a good idea of what is fair and reasonable. I just purchased a knife from the for sale forum on this site for which I believe I paid way too much for but I really wanted it to fill a gap in my collection. I don't care because I'm not looking to make money out of it, I just enjoy the doing and having. Now that's not to say that I would pay over the odds all the time - I don't, in fact usually I am very happy with the prices I pay.

It's very evident from this thread that there are two general types of collectors, the guys who will analyse every aspect of a knife and it's maker before buying or making an "investment". The other group look at a knife if they decided they like it may do some investigating and then if it is within their budget will buy it. They don't want to get ripped off, but they are not considering it as any sort of investment. (That's me!!). I save the analysing and hard work for my other investments which allow me to buy knives at will now. Knives are fun for me - that's all.

BTW, I don't think there is anything wrong with either group. I think all power to you regardless of why you collect or buy knives, it's all good :)



Les Robertson said:
Brownshoe,

I am not denigrating anyone. My point is now and has been for over a decade that custom knives should hold their value. They should be looked at something that you could make money on...even if it is $5. This is what needs to take place for the markets that so many have talked about reaching (High Dollar Guns collectors, Art Collectors, Safari Club, etc.) In other words the "Higher Dollar Markets."

You wrote:



No one should be happy that prices are falling.

Contrary to the lesser known makers those whose knives are sought after by "investors" are not being sold at a loss. Investors understand that that it is only a loss if you sell knife. We all know that things will turn around in the next couple of years. As such the knives from the sought after makers are maintaining their prices and will not be sold for a loss.



Brownshoe, Keith, Bright Red, Giant, or anyone else....question.

What is the dollar amount you are willing to lose (you can answer in percentage or actual dollar amount) before you start to consider other factors than just "I Buy What I Like".

I'll Start. The dollar amount for me was $3,500.00 in 1985.
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Not sure about knives holding their value....

I know of a Ron Lake Tail Lock folder for sale ATM which is not moving. The price has been dropped by close to $1000 IIRC since the original post. Now you are correct in saying that an investor won't lose in a falling market as long as he does not sell, but that is OK as long as does not HAVE to sell. Then it becomes a problem (at least with big ticket knives)

I really like the knives made by the high end collectors, some of them are just beautiful, but there is no I would drop that sort of money on something which has such a limited and niche market (that's the hard nose investor in me coming out)

From memory the most expensive knife I have bought is around $1500. Most knives I look at would range between a low of $250 to my afore mentioned high of $1500. As my tastes have changed since I first started I flipped some knives out of the my collection to make way for others, I don't keep count but it would be fair to say that most have been resold at similar to my buy price or a bit less. There is a handful of exceptions that I got burnt on, but that does not worry me because we are not talking thousands and I view those losses as the cost of having owned and enjoyed those knives.

Bottom line is that if I had to review and analyse my knife buying like I do my business and investment interests I would not do it.

It's just a hobby............according to my wife an expensive hobby, but hey you have to enjoy your money some how :D:D
 
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