- Joined
- May 9, 2007
- Messages
- 2,955
Well said. :thumbup:
-
The BladeForums.com 2024 Traditional Knife is ready to order! See this thread for details: https://www.bladeforums.com/threads/bladeforums-2024-traditional-knife.2003187/
Price is$300$250 ea (shipped within CONUS). If you live outside the US, I will contact you after your order for extra shipping charges.
Order here: https://www.bladeforums.com/help/2024-traditional/ - Order as many as you like, we have plenty.
Collection Strategy & Economic uncertainty
- Thread starter Stephen F
- Start date
Well said. :thumbup:
Les Robertson
BANNED
- Joined
- Oct 10, 1998
- Messages
- 3,565
Hi Giant,
This is the sticking point. Those who "Buy What They Like" do no investigating..at all. They see the knife and they buy it...simple transaction.
These are also the same people that generally are the ones to complain first and loudest when they have to sell a knife. Im just pointing out...you don't get it both ways.
As for the Ron Lake knife, I suspect there is a reason it is not moving. Maybe its Brass or Aluminum framed. The asking price was probably to high to begin with.
As for knives holding their value, again my point is that if collectors expected that pricing would become more realistic and relative to a makers position on a particular market.
I would say without exception you could bring me any knife that doesn't sell at a show and I can tell you why. The majority will fail to sell because they are priced incorrectly. The remainder fall into two primary categories:
1) Wrong materials used.
2) Too bizarre for most collectors tastes.
With regards to pricing and a makers position in a particular market. Collectors are way ahead of the makers with regards to this. The last two big shows are telling the makers that. I suspect there are more painful lessons in store at the Blade Show for makers who continue with a "business (or lack their of) as usual."
For those of you attending shows...note how many times you hear the economy blamed for poor sales.
BTW, I heard the Economy Blamed for poor sales in the 1980's, 1990's and 2000's. I anticipate hearing that lament in the 2010's and 2020's....and so it goes.
This is the sticking point. Those who "Buy What They Like" do no investigating..at all. They see the knife and they buy it...simple transaction.
These are also the same people that generally are the ones to complain first and loudest when they have to sell a knife. Im just pointing out...you don't get it both ways.
As for the Ron Lake knife, I suspect there is a reason it is not moving. Maybe its Brass or Aluminum framed. The asking price was probably to high to begin with.
As for knives holding their value, again my point is that if collectors expected that pricing would become more realistic and relative to a makers position on a particular market.
I would say without exception you could bring me any knife that doesn't sell at a show and I can tell you why. The majority will fail to sell because they are priced incorrectly. The remainder fall into two primary categories:
1) Wrong materials used.
2) Too bizarre for most collectors tastes.
With regards to pricing and a makers position in a particular market. Collectors are way ahead of the makers with regards to this. The last two big shows are telling the makers that. I suspect there are more painful lessons in store at the Blade Show for makers who continue with a "business (or lack their of) as usual."
For those of you attending shows...note how many times you hear the economy blamed for poor sales.
BTW, I heard the Economy Blamed for poor sales in the 1980's, 1990's and 2000's. I anticipate hearing that lament in the 2010's and 2020's....and so it goes.
Les Robertson
BANNED
- Joined
- Oct 10, 1998
- Messages
- 3,565
Hi Brightred,
I don't look at my expenses as a loss of money. I don't smoke, drink, do drugs, no therapy, I have two dogs who were rescued from the pound...their care and feeding is viewed as it would be for any member of the family. Yes I have bought presents for my children. The majority were done so with some educational purpose involved.
The main difference between my point and your counter point is:
First, no one needs custom knives.
Second, unlike a bottle of wine, fine meal, and any other consumable...once consumed they turn into some type of excrement from your body.
Third, custom knives can be bought and even used while still retaining their value...and in some cases going up in value.
That is where a custom knife and all the things you listed differ.
On the plus side if the economy gets too bad and you have to sell some knives....brownshoe feels your pain and is willing to help you...at a discounted price of course.
I don't look at my expenses as a loss of money. I don't smoke, drink, do drugs, no therapy, I have two dogs who were rescued from the pound...their care and feeding is viewed as it would be for any member of the family. Yes I have bought presents for my children. The majority were done so with some educational purpose involved.
The main difference between my point and your counter point is:
First, no one needs custom knives.
Second, unlike a bottle of wine, fine meal, and any other consumable...once consumed they turn into some type of excrement from your body.
Third, custom knives can be bought and even used while still retaining their value...and in some cases going up in value.
That is where a custom knife and all the things you listed differ.
On the plus side if the economy gets too bad and you have to sell some knives....brownshoe feels your pain and is willing to help you...at a discounted price of course.
- Joined
- Oct 28, 2006
- Messages
- 13,363
Theres a lot of ways to skin a cat as the saying goes.
Ultimately, the correct streagy is probably the one that gives the owner the most pleasure. I like Roger have never understood why "buy what you like" and "buy for investment" have to be mutually exclusive concepts. IMO, both concepts have positives and negatives for both collectors and the custom knife community in general.
Like others, I consider myself a collector/investor with collecting being first in that I have never purchased a knife that I wasnt crazy about. However, every piece does have to meet certain criteria before purchase.
It seems to be more about the enjoyment, to the I buy what I like collectors. Well the investment aspect is just another part of my overall pleasure of collecting custom knives. Is there anything wrong with that? The investment part makes it more interesting for me and offers more of a challenge. I not only have to find knives that please me from an aesthetic and function perspective but will also hold and or appreciate in value over time.
As far as my collecting strategy, I got into collecting custom knives as a result of visiting the Blade Show years ago because I had time to kill before going to the airport.
At the time I was collecting cars and had considerable money tied up in them, so I decided my long term custom knife strategy was to build and finance my ultimate collection by buying and selling wisely as I had done with cars. So I immediately went to school learning everything I could about forged knives, the makers and the market. Soon I was able to buy knives which I liked, but at some point could sell at a profit which I used to purchase a little higher grade of knife. I sold four knives this week as I have four new knives coming from makers very soon. Each piece was sold at a profit yet the new owners (with the exception of one piece) are still into the knives at less than makers new price.
I have found this to be a successful strategy for me my buyers and the community in general.
Sorry to go on so with my post, but perhaps the best strategy is to do what suites you the best, however realizing the other collect is not necessarily wrong in his/her approach.
Ultimately, the correct streagy is probably the one that gives the owner the most pleasure. I like Roger have never understood why "buy what you like" and "buy for investment" have to be mutually exclusive concepts. IMO, both concepts have positives and negatives for both collectors and the custom knife community in general.
Like others, I consider myself a collector/investor with collecting being first in that I have never purchased a knife that I wasnt crazy about. However, every piece does have to meet certain criteria before purchase.
It seems to be more about the enjoyment, to the I buy what I like collectors. Well the investment aspect is just another part of my overall pleasure of collecting custom knives. Is there anything wrong with that? The investment part makes it more interesting for me and offers more of a challenge. I not only have to find knives that please me from an aesthetic and function perspective but will also hold and or appreciate in value over time.
As far as my collecting strategy, I got into collecting custom knives as a result of visiting the Blade Show years ago because I had time to kill before going to the airport.
At the time I was collecting cars and had considerable money tied up in them, so I decided my long term custom knife strategy was to build and finance my ultimate collection by buying and selling wisely as I had done with cars. So I immediately went to school learning everything I could about forged knives, the makers and the market. Soon I was able to buy knives which I liked, but at some point could sell at a profit which I used to purchase a little higher grade of knife. I sold four knives this week as I have four new knives coming from makers very soon. Each piece was sold at a profit yet the new owners (with the exception of one piece) are still into the knives at less than makers new price.
I have found this to be a successful strategy for me my buyers and the community in general.
Sorry to go on so with my post, but perhaps the best strategy is to do what suites you the best, however realizing the other collect is not necessarily wrong in his/her approach.
- Joined
- May 9, 2000
- Messages
- 29,205
Well Les, it depends. If I purchase a knife from a popular maker, I would not expect to lose any money. In fact, I would expect to make some. If I purchase a knife from a lesser known, or unknown maker, then I would hope to lose as little as possible, but would accept up to a 1/3 loss. This of course would all be contingent on me selling one of my knives. Not something I tend to do.
The fact is, I don't consider the investment as one of the more important parts of my collecting. I realize that I may not be a true blue buy what you like collector, but I am certainly more in that group than in the one that thinks first of what the knife will get when it is sold.
Les Robertson
BANNED
- Joined
- Oct 10, 1998
- Messages
- 3,565
Hi Keith,
Ok, more clarification.
BWYL knife buyers do not consider anything else with regards to the knife.
I like it....I buy it.
If you consider anything other factor(s) you are not in that group.
You see the majority of that group use the I Buy What I Like mantra to explain their collections. There is absolutely nothing wrong with this type of collection.
However, by invoking the "I Buy What I Like" mantra.....you give up the right to bitch and complain to buyers who don't like your knife, don't think it is worth the money you paid, don't think it is worth what you are selling it for, etc.
You do not get to swear at them. You do not get to give them dirty looks. You do not get to question their motivation (or lack their of) why they won't buy the knife or take it in a trade.
Again, nothing wrong with the BWIL club. Just remember when you approach me or any other potential buyer...You Bought What YOU LIKED...not necessarily what I like. Be gracious when someone tells you they are not interested in the knife.
Ok, more clarification.
BWYL knife buyers do not consider anything else with regards to the knife.
I like it....I buy it.
If you consider anything other factor(s) you are not in that group.
You see the majority of that group use the I Buy What I Like mantra to explain their collections. There is absolutely nothing wrong with this type of collection.
However, by invoking the "I Buy What I Like" mantra.....you give up the right to bitch and complain to buyers who don't like your knife, don't think it is worth the money you paid, don't think it is worth what you are selling it for, etc.
You do not get to swear at them. You do not get to give them dirty looks. You do not get to question their motivation (or lack their of) why they won't buy the knife or take it in a trade.
Again, nothing wrong with the BWIL club. Just remember when you approach me or any other potential buyer...You Bought What YOU LIKED...not necessarily what I like. Be gracious when someone tells you they are not interested in the knife.
- Joined
- May 9, 2000
- Messages
- 29,205
I have never had a problem with someone not liking the knives I chose. These knives are purchased for me, not for the next person that they might be sold to in the future. I will never purchase a knife based on what someone else might think of it, and I wouldn't expect anyone to care what I think of their knives.
To me there is another group other than the buy what you like and the buy for investment people. It is the buy what you like but know what you are spending your money on group. I do a lot of research so that I will know when I am purchasing a knife that will likely lose value. That won't stop me from making that purchase, but it will leave me knowing that if I ever sell the knife, I will likely take a beating.
There are a lot of people that get very upset when they find out that the custom knife they bought because they liked it isn't going to resell for anywhere near what they paid for it. These people didn't educate themselves well enough before they made their purchases. In my case, it's not that I don't know that the knife will lose value, it's just that sometimes it's not an important factor in my purchasing decision.
To me there is another group other than the buy what you like and the buy for investment people. It is the buy what you like but know what you are spending your money on group. I do a lot of research so that I will know when I am purchasing a knife that will likely lose value. That won't stop me from making that purchase, but it will leave me knowing that if I ever sell the knife, I will likely take a beating.
There are a lot of people that get very upset when they find out that the custom knife they bought because they liked it isn't going to resell for anywhere near what they paid for it. These people didn't educate themselves well enough before they made their purchases. In my case, it's not that I don't know that the knife will lose value, it's just that sometimes it's not an important factor in my purchasing decision.
- Joined
- May 9, 2007
- Messages
- 2,955
Les
Can't say I have ever been upset that someone would not give me what I think my knife is worth. If I put a price on my knife the decision lays with me as to whether I accept a counter offer or just don't sell. I don't understand why anyone in that position would bother getting upset since they have control of the situation.
Your rule for the BWIL club applies to the investors / collvesters etc just as much. Just because you use different criteria to determine a purchase does not mean that you are more or less correct and therefore have more or less rights when selling.
The simple fact is we all operate in an open market and any knife or object (be it a $10 knife or 100 million dollar boat) is only ever worth what someone is willing to pay for it at the time that you put it up for sale. This rule definitely applies to everyone!!!
- Joined
- Oct 28, 2006
- Messages
- 13,363
I don't agree.
An item's broad market and supporting data dictates what an item is worth not a single individual purchasing that item at a given time. If I sold a $6000 Fisk bowie for $3000 because I needed quick money, that doesn't mean that now like Fisk bowies are all worth $3000. It just means I sold at a discount because I was in a bind.
People over pay and under pay for all kinds of items every day.
- Joined
- May 9, 2007
- Messages
- 2,955
Kevin, I think you are splitting hairs by pointing out an exception to the rule. Essentially we are both talking about the same thing.
Les Robertson
BANNED
- Joined
- Oct 10, 1998
- Messages
- 3,565
Hi Giant:
You many not understand it...but people get quite upset, in particular with dealers (as well you see it on the forums) for not paying what they want. These are almost without exception BWIL Club members.
The only similarity is the initial sight of the knife. Investors/Collvestors do at least some homework. Consequently, they are at least somewhat aware of the potential loss/profit of purchasing a particular knife. Consequently, they don't cry like little girls if things don't go their way.
So buy what you like!
I am not addressing anyone's criteria for buying a knife. Only the fact that if you don't do your homework you give up what ever right you think you have to complain.
You many not understand it...but people get quite upset, in particular with dealers (as well you see it on the forums) for not paying what they want. These are almost without exception BWIL Club members.
The only similarity is the initial sight of the knife. Investors/Collvestors do at least some homework. Consequently, they are at least somewhat aware of the potential loss/profit of purchasing a particular knife. Consequently, they don't cry like little girls if things don't go their way.
So buy what you like!
I am not addressing anyone's criteria for buying a knife. Only the fact that if you don't do your homework you give up what ever right you think you have to complain.
- Joined
- May 9, 2007
- Messages
- 2,955
Les
I've gotta say that this sounds like a massive generalisation, you're trying to say that only BWIL guys would ever complain and the other more lofty buyers would not!! The truth surely lies somewhere in the middle. I'm willing to bet there are wingers on both camps. In fact I'm positive there are!!
I ONLY buy what I like but thanks for giving me permission.
Neither I or anyone else has given up their rights. As has already been said before in this thread, each will proceed according their own motivations when buying and selling, nobody is right or wrong as long as they are happy doing it their way. I'm not sure why you keep insisting any differently.
Les Robertson
BANNED
- Joined
- Oct 10, 1998
- Messages
- 3,565
HI Giant,
I an not talking about giving anyone permission for buying any knife. You miss the point.
It is after the knife is purchased.
My comments are based on 23 years of being a custom knife dealer. Having stood for thousands of hours behind tables at shows. Talking with Tens of Thousands of custom knife buyers, sellers and traders. Being shown knives that range from being worthless to something that could be in a museum. Tens of Thousands of phone calls wanting to sell or trade a knife and in excess of One Hundred Thousand emails trying to do the same.
Without a doubt the most verbally abusive people who are looking to sell or trade a knife are from the I BWIL club.
Out of curiosity what are you basing your comments on my "generalization" on? Surely more than just your experience buying and selling knives. As if that is all you have then I would suggest that you are the one who is generalizing.
I an not talking about giving anyone permission for buying any knife. You miss the point.
It is after the knife is purchased.
My comments are based on 23 years of being a custom knife dealer. Having stood for thousands of hours behind tables at shows. Talking with Tens of Thousands of custom knife buyers, sellers and traders. Being shown knives that range from being worthless to something that could be in a museum. Tens of Thousands of phone calls wanting to sell or trade a knife and in excess of One Hundred Thousand emails trying to do the same.
Without a doubt the most verbally abusive people who are looking to sell or trade a knife are from the I BWIL club.
Out of curiosity what are you basing your comments on my "generalization" on? Surely more than just your experience buying and selling knives. As if that is all you have then I would suggest that you are the one who is generalizing.
- Joined
- Jun 17, 2004
- Messages
- 8,436
Well, I am a member of the "Buy what you like club". I am amused when I see my knives go up in value (prices of similar knives) but not much more, as I don't really have the time to do this as an investment/business strategy. I spend enough of my time on work, and I do not want to turn my hobby into more work.
Some folks do not consider this type of thing work--they call it fun. More power to them--but it is not for for me.
On another note, the following quote is so off-base that it amazes me, and I am considering the source.
As I have posted a number of times, although I got into this hobby because I have always loved knives, the best thing about it is the people. Of course, that includes the makers. The makers that I have interacted with are a very good group of people, and they have families to feed, kids to send off to college, medical expenses, etc. I don't know how many of the makers out there have yachts and private jets but I suspect that it can't be too many; when you think of how long it takes to make a custom knife and add the costs of materials, their profit margins can't be that great.
If prices fall, how many of those makers will be pushed under the margin--and forced out? (Sorry, Les, if I don't have the correct terminology for this.) It hurts the business--it hurts my hobby--and it hurts my friends.
So if prices drop, would it save me a few bucks on a custom that I have my eye on? Yeah. Would it help my hobby in the long term if the makers drop out? Nope. Will it help the knife community? Not a chance. Not the makers. Not the purveyors. And not the collectors.
Some folks do not consider this type of thing work--they call it fun. More power to them--but it is not for for me.
On another note, the following quote is so off-base that it amazes me, and I am considering the source.
As I have posted a number of times, although I got into this hobby because I have always loved knives, the best thing about it is the people. Of course, that includes the makers. The makers that I have interacted with are a very good group of people, and they have families to feed, kids to send off to college, medical expenses, etc. I don't know how many of the makers out there have yachts and private jets but I suspect that it can't be too many; when you think of how long it takes to make a custom knife and add the costs of materials, their profit margins can't be that great.
If prices fall, how many of those makers will be pushed under the margin--and forced out? (Sorry, Les, if I don't have the correct terminology for this.) It hurts the business--it hurts my hobby--and it hurts my friends.
So if prices drop, would it save me a few bucks on a custom that I have my eye on? Yeah. Would it help my hobby in the long term if the makers drop out? Nope. Will it help the knife community? Not a chance. Not the makers. Not the purveyors. And not the collectors.
- Joined
- May 9, 2000
- Messages
- 29,205
I just want to add how much I am enjoying this thread.
Les Robertson
BANNED
- Joined
- Oct 10, 1998
- Messages
- 3,565
Hi Shaldag,
When I first got into custom knives it was due to being in the Army. I was interested in quality gear. Having had factory knives break I moved to custom knives. While I collected guns as well...it was knives that became my passion.
So I do understand the freedom it gives the collector to buy what you like.
As a professional I have to make money on each knife I sell. Consequently, I have to do my homework as I have to be right about 95% of the time. Perhaps what I enjoy most about my job is being in a position to work with makers and have input on many of the knives I sell. Im still a collector at heart.
If the custom knife market starts to take a hit...I may be forced to get a real job
Like you I have seen friends of mine forced out of making custom knives. It is not something I enjoy.
As I have stated before I think it would help all involved in the custom knife community if all of us would do our homework.
When I first got into custom knives it was due to being in the Army. I was interested in quality gear. Having had factory knives break I moved to custom knives. While I collected guns as well...it was knives that became my passion.
So I do understand the freedom it gives the collector to buy what you like.
As a professional I have to make money on each knife I sell. Consequently, I have to do my homework as I have to be right about 95% of the time. Perhaps what I enjoy most about my job is being in a position to work with makers and have input on many of the knives I sell. Im still a collector at heart.
If the custom knife market starts to take a hit...I may be forced to get a real job
Like you I have seen friends of mine forced out of making custom knives. It is not something I enjoy.
As I have stated before I think it would help all involved in the custom knife community if all of us would do our homework.
Les Robertson
BANNED
- Joined
- Oct 10, 1998
- Messages
- 3,565
HI Keith,
I find it interesting how much this forum in particular is now at least considering the aftermarket.
The "I" word is being used more and more. It was two years ago at Bob Neal and I's seminar at Blade Show that someone broached the subject about investing in custom knives. Last year more people were asking questions.
To the point that Blade has changed the name of the seminar to: What makes custom knives appreciate in value.
Steve Shackleford suggested this title after the 3 part article I wrote was published in Blade.
Perhaps it is just the economy that is making people eye their knives differently. Perhaps it is some people seeing their stock portfolio dissipate or their banks offering almost nothing in interest...perhaps a combination of these factors and countless others. I don't think anyone really knows for sure.
I understand that because of my experiences over the years that I am probably a little more sensitive to this than most here.
I find it interesting how much this forum in particular is now at least considering the aftermarket.
The "I" word is being used more and more. It was two years ago at Bob Neal and I's seminar at Blade Show that someone broached the subject about investing in custom knives. Last year more people were asking questions.
To the point that Blade has changed the name of the seminar to: What makes custom knives appreciate in value.
Steve Shackleford suggested this title after the 3 part article I wrote was published in Blade.
Perhaps it is just the economy that is making people eye their knives differently. Perhaps it is some people seeing their stock portfolio dissipate or their banks offering almost nothing in interest...perhaps a combination of these factors and countless others. I don't think anyone really knows for sure.
I understand that because of my experiences over the years that I am probably a little more sensitive to this than most here.
- Joined
- Jun 17, 2004
- Messages
- 8,436
Hi Shaldag,
When I first got into custom knives it was due to being in the Army. I was interested in quality gear. Having had factory knives break I moved to custom knives. While I collected guns as well...it was knives that became my passion.
So I do understand the freedom it gives the collector to buy what you like.
As a professional I have to make money on each knife I sell. Consequently, I have to do my homework as I have to be right about 95% of the time. Perhaps what I enjoy most about my job is being in a position to work with makers and have input on many of the knives I sell. Im still a collector at heart.
If the custom knife market starts to take a hit...I may be forced to get a real job
Like you I have seen friends of mine forced out of making custom knives. It is not something I enjoy.
As I have stated before I think it would help all involved in the custom knife community if all of us would do our homework.
Les, while I am in this bidness just for a hobby, I certainly recognize that this is not rue for all of us. I mentioned makers in my previous post, but I did not address purveyors.
Of course, the makers that I know are in it because they love it; they certainly are not getting rich, judging by their lifestyle. But it is their bread-and-butter, which makes it a far more serious thing for them than it is for someone like me. As far as the purveyors that I know, of course--it is the same. This is their bread-and-butter. So I recognize that your needs are different than mine, and I also know the importance of purveyors in the knife world.
Now mind you, every purveyor with whom I interact in person always has a personal collection of knives--so they are also in it for the love of the game. Great--it makes them more knowledgeable and also more fun to talk to. It is great when your hobby can also be your profession. I wouldn't give a tinker's cuss for a purveyor who didn't love knives--which is fine, because I have not met one such.
For me that is not an option, and I must confess that I enjoy my profession even more than I enjoy my hobby. My profession demands an average work week of over 60 hours, and much more during high pressure times. In my free time, I prefer to study aspects of my hobby such as comparative structures of steels, history of knifemaking, and such things. The economics of collecting interest me much less personally.
Now, of course, this does not stop me from reading these threads on Bladeforums, where I do learn a bit about such things. In addition, the desirability of various makers on the secondary market does not escape my attention. But these things are not what motivate me.
I just like knives and (most of) the people associated with them.
- Joined
- Oct 28, 2006
- Messages
- 13,363
Well said....
