Collectors vs. Purveyors At Knife Shows!

Originally posted by Les Robertson
"I think shows should have a rule that booths must remain until the end of the show and that no exhibitors should be allowed to dismabtle their booth before the show officially closes. Whether thats saturday or sunday."

Some shows have this, most don't enforce it. Why? Simple...if you expect me to stay until close, then you need to put customers through the door until close.

Seldom if ever does this happen. If the promoter tries to enforce it. You just stop going to that show and pick up one of the other 40 or so shows across the US.
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If all shows had this rule and enforced it, that would not be an option. The only option would be to stop doing shows altogether. Would a large percentage of makers, manufacturers and dealers do this? I don't know, I guess we would need to hear from them on that point.

Personally, I do think that if knife shows were Friday/Saturday then you would see tables being vacated mid afternoon on Saturday so that folks could get an early start heading home. The only way this wouldn't be the case would be if the shows were busy right till the end on Saturday, or unless not being allowed to leave early was strictly enforced.

Edited because I left out an important part of Les's quote.
 
Hi Keith,

I view Sunday as a travel day. So while some people might leave Saturday (especially if they didn't sell anything).

Most people will stay. Take the NY Custom Knife show last year. I flew out Sunday morning, so I stayed till the end.

Keith, because of the nature of shows, transportation limitations, declining show attendance, etc. Shows that forced you to stay, would go out of business. Remember, show promoters are not putting on shows out of the goodness of their hearts. Which is why some even contractually obligate you to stay in the hotel the show is at.

Some shows couldn't happen if we didn't stay at that hotel. Customers however, can stay where ever they like. So can those non-table holding/cut in line dealers RWS was talking about. They don't have to pay for a table, they can stay at a cheaper hotel and they can leave Saturday (saving even more money on a hotel, by not staying there). What do they do with all this money they save.. you guessed it. They are buying the very knife that RWS and/or Joss wanted!:mad:


Customers such as Jeremy have broken the code. This is why I will sell as much, if not more the 2-3 days before and after ths show off my Internet than I will at the show.

Collectors can do so much research on the web, that many don't feel it is necessary to attend a show any more. Especially overseas clients.

Figure the rising cost of airfare, luggage restrictions (in the US we have to travel with unlocked bags. Some shows are now offering FedEx service...however this means you have to buy the knife on Friday in order to ship it with them.), security issues, etc.

Collectors have actually figured out by attending one or two major shows, doing research at the show for future purchases. They can then use the money for travelling to the shows and buy knives with it. For many it is just a time issue...they just can't make it to shows.

For me only about 15% of my total sales are from shows. This is why most of the new Internet deales do not set up. From a purely bottom line business perspective, setting up is a waste of money.

It's even more difficult for dealers like Neil Ostroff of True North Knives. He would have to come into the US with a bag or two full of knives. Then go through the same hassles going back into Canada!

I got to deal with Canadian Customs the last time I went to the Canadian Guild Show. That was before 9/11. They didn't want to put me in Jail or anything. They were more interested in why I didn't have my forms to collect GST. Fortunately, I had the letter from them Guild President Wally Hayes inviting me up to "Judge and conduct a sales/marketing seiminar". I convinced them that I was not there to sell anything.

It's good you guys are asking these questions. I don't think many of the collectors realize what goes on behind the scenes. Especially, when your trying to move $30- $40,000 worth of knives around the US and Canada.
 
Originally posted by Les Robertson

Collectors have actually figured out by attending one or two major shows, doing research at the show for future purchases. They can then use the money for travelling to the shows and buy knives with it. For many it is just a time issue...they just can't make it to shows.
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There you have it. That may well be what I will have to do. I would love to get to some of the smaller shows, but I might just have to plan on attending Blade and no other show.

You have nailed the reason that I don't attend shows. Living in western Canada, I am far away from every major show. It costs me a fortune to get to any of them. Every time I think of going to a show I look at the money I will be spending and decide to purchase a knife instead.

As far as Canadian makers and dealers are concerned, I have heard that they are actually not allowed to work the tables at US shows. Something about having to have a work visa to be able to sell knives at a show. I have been told that they have to get someone from the US to work the show for them. Is this true?
 
Originally posted by Les Robertson
Hi Jeremy,

Where the hell have you been????

If yours would have been the post after the initial thread starter by RWS.

This thread would already be dead! :D
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Actually, this thread was born out of frustration from going to knife shows and not being able to see, as well as have some chance to buy, certain makers knives due in large part to pre-show sales that occur between purveyors and makers.

This really wasn't intended to be a sour grapes complaint that I , the showgoer, didn't get to buy my dream knife at the show.

Albeit, Jeremy has some fine points, the problem that started this thread has not been solved!

Empty tables at shows may seem like a neat deal for the maker and it probably is in the short run. In the long run, however, people like me who go to shows to look at certain makers' knives will stop being so enthusiastic about shows if I'm unable to see their products in person. And then I'll eventually begin to lose interest in their knives.

I order all of my knives directly from the makers when I want one.
Some makers that I have orderd from I have never seen one of their knives in person. I'm uncomfortable with that and I have stopped doing it!

The makers I want to buy from seem to sell out so fast at the shows I don't stand a chance to see their knives, let alone buy one. I still wish there was a way to at least see their knives at the shows. I can't fly across the country to Fisk's or Dean's house to see their stuff. And looking at wonderful pictures of knives
can be very deceiving and quite boring. I've seen a lot of real ugly dog knives take some fantastic pictures!

Now, to turn the table on myself. I asked myself this simple question.
Les made me think. If Fisk or Carson or some other Star in this industry were to ask me to meet with them before a show starts and said "take your pick" would I accept? Here's my answer!
:D! :D! :D! :D! :D! :D!
So, it would appear that I'm just as easily enticed as the purveyor.

At a show, I wish control over makers' inventory would remain with the maker at least until the show begins.

Most wishes don't come true, however! As my grandfather use to tell me when I wished for something... he said, "son, go ahead and wish in one hand and s**t in the other and see which one fills up the quickest".:cool:
 
Originally posted by Keith Montgomery

As far as Canadian makers and dealers are concerned, I have heard that they are actually not allowed to work the tables at US shows. Something about having to have a work visa to be able to sell knives at a show. I have been told that they have to get someone from the US to work the show for them. Is this true?
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Keith, this is untrue.
In fact, in about 30 minutes I'm leaving for the Blade Show West to meet with Bob Lay, a well known Canadian knifemaker. He'll have a table and be delivering a knife to me as well.
 
Hi Keith,

To my knowledge Canadian makers do not need Visa's to sell at shows.

I see Greg Lightfoot, Brian Tighe and Wally Hayes at shows in the US on a regular basis.

The fact they need a Visa has never come up in conversation.
 
RWS,

The situation has been resolved. Though not as you would like. Sellers of anything will not hold a product for sale from someone who wants to buy it. On the off chance that someone may come along later in the day or over the weekend and want to buy it.

Your view of the custom knife world appears to be a little altruistic. You say you can't afford to fly across the country to Kit or Jerry's house.

However, it is ok for them to incur the costs of doing so to be at a show near you. So you can look at their knives. Maybe you buy one...Maybe you don't.

Much as you dislike it, if you want to see the knives. You have to get to the show when they are still available to view. This may in fact mean getting there on Thursday.

Not saying it's right or fair but that is the way that it is.
 
Originally posted by Les Robertson
RWS,

Your view of the custom knife world appears to be a little altruistic.
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Hoping, at a minimum, that knifemakers stop selling most of their knives to dealers before a show starts is altruistic? Please!!

I still like the Reno Show idea. Do you believe they're altruistic too?

Les, we'll just have to agree to disagree on this one!
 
RWS,

See your back on the dealers again.

It's not just dealers who buy knives before the show..it is collectors as well.

Also, you continue to go after the wrong group. If the makers won't sell them before the show...then no one would buy them.

Your trying to treat the symptom and not the cause.

I belive that every maker puts every knife they have on the table at Reno. I also believe that many of these knives have been promised to collectors before the show. Many of those knives are off the table in the first 15 minutes of the show.

It goes back to that "baby sitting" thing. How long to you expect a maker to stand behind his table and watch someone else's knives?

So it sounds like you are headed to the Reno Show then.
 
Originally posted by Les Robertson
Hi Keith,

To my knowledge Canadian makers do not need Visa's to sell at shows.

I see Greg Lightfoot, Brian Tighe and Wally Hayes at shows in the US on a regular basis.

The fact they need a Visa has never come up in conversation.
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Here is a quote from a post that George Tichbourne made last year.

Originally posted by George Tichbourne
The real concern in the US is for "undocumented workers", wetbacks to the rest of us and anyone without a green card is seen as undocumented.
While the logical approach is to become documented it takes a long time so the alternative is to invoke NAFTA and use the services of an agent who is an American citizen to sell your product at a show.
NAFTA allows principles or representatives of a company to freely travel and represent their product in either country without restriction, sales however must be carried out by properly documented individuals.
A couple of years ago when I went to a show in Texas I arranged with a fellow who lives in Texas to be my dealer of record and handle any sales that occured at the show. As long as I personally did not handle any direct sales, ie take the money directly, there was no conflict. A letter from the representative requesting that I bring product to the show for display explaining that he would handle all sales for a commission solves the problem at the border. You have to know that the proper answer to the customs question "will you be paid or recieve any renumeration for attending the show?" is a simple no with the explanation that I was in fact paying all of my own expenses as well. As with any agent or dealer these people work on commission and must report the income on their own income tax.

Coming back to Canada with leftover knives is easier if you documented them with Customs before you leave but in my case all knives have my name on them and I usually carry a copy to Knives 2001 or so which lists my name, address, and makers mark for easy authoritative referance.

Mailing knives ahead to your agent is even simpler, no questions at all at the border.
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It was reading this that lead me to think that Canadian makers and dealers had some problems when selling at US shows.
 
I realize that this is off topic, but for those of you that would like to read the rest of that thread, here is a link. It is not very long so it won't take much time to get through it.

RWS, Bob Lay has his only post on this forum in the thread below. He seems to think that are some major problems for Canadian makers and dealers that want to sell at US knife shows.

http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=196894&highlight=NAFTA
 
Originally posted by Les Robertson
RWS,

I belive that every maker puts every knife they have on the table at Reno. I also believe that many of these knives have been promised to collectors before the show. Many of those knives are off the table in the first 15 minutes of the show.
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I was going by what Jerry Fisk said in this thread about Reno which is
"The ABS show in Reno asks the makers to please leave the knives on the table till the end of the show. there were plenty knives to look at as we all left them on the table as requested."
 
Originally posted by Keith Montgomery
RWS, Bob Lay has his only post on this forum in the thread below. He seems to think that are some major problems for Canadian makers and dealers that want to sell at US knife shows.
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Hey Keith,
I'm not sure about it back when that post was made. He was there at Blade Show West today with knives on his table including mine. I'm not really sure what bureaucratic hoops he had to jump through to do business here.
 
a knife show can be fun...you can see new things meet the makers, blah, blah, blah...

but the heart of this topic is the perception that some custom knife buyers now have....

the chance of you being able to obtain an "A-list" makers knife at a show is low if you are not a groupie, long time dealer, or there early.

it is not zero...yes, you can contact the maker before hand...that does work sometimes.

sometimes there are even better things available from other makers...or even from a dealer.... sometimes even at list price....heaven forbid!!!


BUT i have had no desire to travel to a show the last few years though...too much hassle...and even more so due to the reason shows tend not to be in very interesting places or at good times of year if they are

new york in november? or march?? not my preferred time to go there

winston-salem??? hey i lived there once...i know

orlando in july??? HOT!!

the metroplex?? hey kids lets go see the cotton bowl

eugene at any time of year...ugh...same could be said for little rock...sorry arkansas guys

las vegas/reno...not into gambling...for others that is an attraction, but i dont see myself going there no matter how good the show is



by report show attendence is declining...yes there are economic factors for this(and i agree with darby there is some strange economics in this industry)....

but who wants to travel to a show where fisk/simonich/carson/martin/terzoula are the headliners (just listing some makers who posted in this thread)...with hopes of getting at least one of their knives (and this is a motivation for many to travel to a show as a lot of these guys do not take orders anymore)...only to find out there are sold out within minutes of opening...or before...

i understand it would be near impossible for a promoter to change this

so unless a show is so big (like blade), is in my hometown or is in a really nice location or place that appeals to my family....i will stay home and coach soccer...like i am today :)
 
I still avoid going to shows in the US where I do not have a dealer of record because if I were to run afoul of the authorities it would become impossible to cross the border for any reason. The laws of sovereign countries must be obeyed.

The main reason for this type of law is to ensure that the government gets their tax money payable and that foreigners are not taking jobs from their citizens....but mainly the tax thing I think.

Similar laws exist in Canada for foreign makers or dealers entering Canada.

For the most part the laws are not enforced because of the small potatoes nature of the financial recovery possible when weighed against the cost of prosecution but why take the risk?

When you get right down to it doing a show like Atlanta is awfully expensive and the sales required to make that show a profitable show for me are not going to happen but I am scheduled to go again next year if my table comes through. Exposure is everything.
 
Greeting's All just read some of this and had to " chime in " . i do see a small problem with people traveling to show's sometimes at a great expense to find any / all the knives they were hoping to at least see were gone the first 15 minutes of the show . as for the Purveror thing i would think they could let the "Maker" babysit for a hour or so while they were Shopping . this solves a problem for the guy's who traveled far and wide to attend to just see a particular knife . i will never refuse to sell one of my knives at any show period as that is why i make and go there to try to get my stuff in your hand's , how else can a maker grow but to get his knives into the hand's of Knifenut's? on people packing in early i think it is B.S i would like it if there was a good crowd until the end of a show but some show promoter's don't seem to care . i Feel that if a Promoter would spend a few buck's more on Advertising his / her show everywhere Knifenut's are the attendance would improve . I see this at the few Gun show's here where they are advertised on T.V and Radio . a required stay till time is ok for me but i would still like to see customer's coming in then i don't care if the show is ofically over at 4:00 or 5:00 otherwise i am inclined to Pack up at the ending Time , be it 4:00 or 5:00
 
I have watched this thread with great interest. One thing immediatly comes to mind. You cannot please all the people all the time.
Having been pres. of a knife club,(and recently been "reuped" again)for 3 years,been a knife collector for almost 30 years,probably been to as many shows as anyone on the planet,have an extensive collection of Cases, autos, Custom folders,slip joint customs and gettin a fair collection of ABS member knives I feel I have to give my .02.
Just got back last night from a Show that in my opinion before I went was going to be a dog.How wrong I was.
The only real reason I went was to see 3 makers. Richard Rogers(bought 1 of the two he had on his table).I was second to his table.
Dan Burke(ordered two) and Robert Capdepon(bought one)I have not seen Capdepon and Burke in a couple years and wanted to rekindle my friendship.
Yes my friendship.That means more to me than anything in my knife collecting.I never want for a knife from any maker.If I want a piece I contact them and order one. Most of the time I will pick it up at a show.But most of all I buy the maker. And to meet the makers you have to go to shows.
Makes no difference who gets through the door first or any of that BS I go to see the makers AND Purvayers.If they have what I want I buy it.Spent $3500.00 and was not going to buy but a Rogers slip..You never know.Bought a real cool Hopkins Auto from Paul Bausch.A way cool BIG Bowie from Jason Tiensvold.A Jim Rodebaugh Skinner and picked up a Bad Ass folder he made for me.
To me the fun is the shows.Meetin the makers and other collectors.And having fun.Which I had a lot of.Also lot of going to shows is what you make of the experience.
I travel to shows with a couple of guys that are my friends.We ALWAYS have a good time.
Just my .02.
Randy
 
Randy, that is a great reason to go to shows, but what if you can't make it untill Sunday and a buch of those people have packed up and left? How would you feel then? I would also be going to a show to meet people and visit with friends and would be very disappointed if they had gone before I could get there.

As far as buying knives at a show is concerned, just because some makers have sold out in the first few hours of a show does not mean that there will not be lots of knives left that I would want to purchase. This will also give me a chance to look over the knives of some of the lesser known makers that are unlikely to sell out early. You never know, I just might run into a real find.
 
I plan to go to a Show for the first day or two.Usually leave or am on the road Sunday morning.Unless I am with a maker.Then it is the whole enchalada.
Everyone has their own agenda. I don't recommend going to a show just for a Sunday.It is a very social day for knifemakers and dealers.
I have been trying to get the "gate" up for our Sunday at the BAKCA Show.Any suggestions???
Randy
 
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