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Colorado vs Japan/Taiwan/China
- Thread starter JW Knives
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what a weird logic ... making a knife to the same specs, same quality, same material, overseas, with US steel specialy shipped to taiwan and shipping the knives back to the US should be cheaper than making it in the US ?
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Nothing weird, may be I wasn't clear. I didn't say that the knife, made in Taiwan should be cheaper, I said that for me US made knife worth more, meaning not only money.
Please, correct me if I am wrong, but I think that most people in France drink more French wines, than Italians, Spanish or Americans.
I hope this will clear my point of view.
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I want to own a Spyderco and will eventually when a model comes out that ticks all the necessary boxes for me. The brand will be tarnished to me personally if they continue to raise the percentage of knives made in countries that I don't care to support. The Sage 2 Ti frame lock is my ideal Spyderco minus being made in Taiwan. I would already own it if it were made anywhere except China/Taiwan. I don't buy into the "go wherever the quality is" argument. Benchmades are great and make everything in the US now. I'm not debating quality of manufacturing; I'm interested in the manufacturing location for collectibility reasons and perceived quality. I can't pay 140 for something and see Taiwan stamped on the blade. To me that's like spending 40k on a Kia or Hyundai when I am spending Lexus or BMW money. I would rather pay about 30 bucks extra and get a US made Bradley Alias over the Sage 2. Also, why do they have to stamp the country of origin on the blade if it's not adding to the appeal of the knife. Why not just leave it off on outsourced knives?
I think the frame lock on the Chokwe is made of Titanium. That'll jack the price up.
To give you some context on the Taiwan maker, it isn't some giant corporation sucking up American industry. It is a smaller, family-owned company. One of the main reasons that the Sage is made there is because Spyderco was unable to find another manufacturer who not only had the skill to make these knives, but was willing to even take the project on due to the complexity of building the same knife with so many different locks. The Taiwan builder was also willing to build the Navaja, something other manufacturers weren't willing to do because of the complexity involved and the level of quality demanded. The plant in Golden seems to be running at maximum capacity right now (see the perpetual Para 2 backlog for proof) and, considering the uncertainty of the economy and cost of expanding, it is a much more sound business decision to outsource production than it is to make huge investments in equipment, people, and production space at this time. Keep in mind that compared to Benchmade, Spyderco is relatively small and can't afford to absorb the costs of expansion mistakes as easily as BM can. I'm not trying to make excuses for sending work overseas, but explaining the reality of the situation. Regarding production of the line in China, Sal (the owner of Spyderco) said (from post #8 of this thread):
As the competition continues to bring more Chinese models to the marketplace, which seems to be market driven, We too must have offerings that compete.
Also see Sal's comments in post #21 of this thread on the Spyderco forums, where he explains a bit more about their approach to manufacturing in China.
Does the "anywhere except China/Taiwan" mean you'd own it if it were made in Nigeria, Iran, or Venezuela?
You have every right to not buy from Taiwan or from China based on your personal feelings. But your analogy is all wrong. When buying a Taiwan Spyderco, your spending Lexus or BMW money and getting a Ferrari. Remember that Apple computers (generally perceived as being the highest quality computers and phones you can buy) are manufactured mainly in China and Taiwan, so country of origin has less to do with perception than the actual product. BTW, BMW does manufacture some of their cars in China, South Africa, and India...
It's required by law to have the country of origin on the item, so that's why they are marked Taiwan. Even though the steel is American, the carbon fiber (on those that models use it) is American, the design is American, and the parent company (Spyderco) is American, since it's turned from raw material into a knife in Taiwan, that's who gets credit on the knife. When you buy a Taiwan Spydie, you're supporting American manufacturing of all the raw materials as well as the all-American company Spyderco. Here's what Sal had to say on the matter (post #9 of this thread):
Much of the complication is, unfortunaely, political. When we looked into the Country of Origin thing rather closely, we learned that in the USA, different classes of products require different percentages of parts to be USA made to legally call it USA made. For knives, we were told 100% must be made here. When we investigated materials, and their COO, we got the impression that nobody really knew and we question if anyone really cared.
In many countries, COO is not required so information is not often accurate, Eg; A knife made in China, but shipped to France may not have a COO. Customers purchasing that produt in France just assume it's made in France .
It seems like it's an honor game. We feel that our customers want to know where it is "made" (assembled) regardless of where they live. We have customers worldwide. We try to mark where it's assembled because we work with specific makers in specific countries. Much of the materials that we use in Japan, Italy and Taiwan actually come from the USA. G-10., steel, (Taiwan) Carbon fiber, etc.
Hope that helps.
sal
In many countries, COO is not required so information is not often accurate, Eg; A knife made in China, but shipped to France may not have a COO. Customers purchasing that produt in France just assume it's made in France .
It seems like it's an honor game. We feel that our customers want to know where it is "made" (assembled) regardless of where they live. We have customers worldwide. We try to mark where it's assembled because we work with specific makers in specific countries. Much of the materials that we use in Japan, Italy and Taiwan actually come from the USA. G-10., steel, (Taiwan) Carbon fiber, etc.
Hope that helps.
sal
As you can see, Sal and Company put a lot of thought into outsourcing and don't take it lightly. While I don't aim to change your mind on your perception of Taiwan, at least now you can be more educated on the "Why?" these knives are manufactured where they are. I'm sorry that you're missing out on some of the great models and superb quality that Taiwan is building for Spyderco. Fortunately for you, Spyderco continues to build knives in Golden and are always trying to expand their selection, so maybe one day they will have that knife that is just right for you, but built here in the good ol' USA.
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It's like hearing someone saying 'i will never buy a Nissan GTR because it is not made in the US.' Come on! U can't compare knives like that. With such logic, u're missing out alot from spyderco!
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i understand this without any problem.
what i have more trouble to get is your chokwe/ military and more generaly taiwanvs US or japan price comparison. i should have quoted this post to be more clear.
you compare two knives of roughly similar blade lengths, same blade steel, same grind, one has a solid titanium framelock the other a thin steel liner and say the framelock should be cheaper? it's already a deal to me if it is at the same price given that the F&F is equivalent.
and btw no, i drink only good wine regardless where it comes from, i've been blown away by some south african, chillian (is that word?) wines, spanish and italian are already widely known and appreciated here. couldn't care less where they came from. some of them where more expensive that what i'm used to pay, some where a crazy deal and given the quality i would have gladly paid twice .... same goes for knives.
but what i clearly understand is the pride of ownership thing, i will never discuss that as it's your opinion and no one should tell you what to think. it's the price comparaison you make that's unfair imo.
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Sorry for misunderstanding, I wasn't talking about you personally. I was talking about most of the people. Probably in choice of wine, people who live in rural areas, especially in wine making regions are quite different than people, who live in big city.
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"Also, why do they have to stamp the country of origin on the blade if it's not adding to the appeal of the knife. Why not just leave it off on outsourced knives?"
Every non knife guy that I have shown my made in Japan knives too think that it's pretty cool. I an more than happy to see a Japan/Taiwan stamp on my blades. Let's face it they have thousands of years of history in blade making. We here in North America don't even come close to their expertise.
Every non knife guy that I have shown my made in Japan knives too think that it's pretty cool. I an more than happy to see a Japan/Taiwan stamp on my blades. Let's face it they have thousands of years of history in blade making. We here in North America don't even come close to their expertise.
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For one thing, because it's a legal requirement that country of origin appear on anything imported to the USA. I suspect it's permanently stamped in plain sight because Spyderco is not ashamed of where the knives were made, even if it prevents the ignorant and narrow minded from purchasing them.
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Having owned and handled over 100 Spydies, maybe over 200 Spydies (never counted), my unscientific but steadfast belief is that Colorado produced knives are the best, closely followed by Taiwan. Italy is close to Taiwan. Japan is a step down from Taiwan but well ahead of China. I'm just talking production quality. Where we want our dollars going is another matter.
That said, I think the quality ebbs and flows from the different locations and some of it has to do with the models being produced there. As a general rule, all Spydies are well made and if you happen to get one that isn't, the folks in Golden will set it right for you.
That said, I think the quality ebbs and flows from the different locations and some of it has to do with the models being produced there. As a general rule, all Spydies are well made and if you happen to get one that isn't, the folks in Golden will set it right for you.
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I've had 7 Goldens and all but one were perfect. The orange Millie had some distracting grind marks that bothered me enough to trade it but the rest just perfect. The Seki knives great also and both Sages near perfect. I won't knowingly buy Chinese as long as I have a choice. I've been very satisfied with Spyderco.
I don't believe anyone should be chastised for their opinions, desires, wants, etc.. when it comes to spending their own money. There are plenty of quality products coming from places I just don't want to patronize. I don't consider it "My Loss" at all.
I don't believe anyone should be chastised for their opinions, desires, wants, etc.. when it comes to spending their own money. There are plenty of quality products coming from places I just don't want to patronize. I don't consider it "My Loss" at all.
I would like to support American Made first from Golden, Colorado; Japan second and I'm hesitant to buy any knives from Taiwan. I've owned a Poliwog and Manix 2. My poliwog slipped out of my hands quite a few times so I stopped carrying it but my Manix 2 is dependable. I have other knives on rotation though.
The Military is my favourite design bar none but the issues with Golden's exceptionally poor fit n finish is simply too much for me to deal with; especially when some of the competition (read; Kershaw) is offering China made products with much, much better quality overall.
The thing that finally pushed me over the edge was a couple of Millies where the locking surfaces of the bar and tang wasn't flush and only caught the corner of the locking bar. I think if more people took the time to check on tolerance by shining a light at it to look for unsettling gaps the Millie's (and Golden's) stock would quickly plummet and call for a change, but as it stands Spyderco wont have to bother much with either customer service or improvements unless it's blatantly (and proven) dangerous like in version 1.0 of the Manix 2 and Para 2...
The thing that finally pushed me over the edge was a couple of Millies where the locking surfaces of the bar and tang wasn't flush and only caught the corner of the locking bar. I think if more people took the time to check on tolerance by shining a light at it to look for unsettling gaps the Millie's (and Golden's) stock would quickly plummet and call for a change, but as it stands Spyderco wont have to bother much with either customer service or improvements unless it's blatantly (and proven) dangerous like in version 1.0 of the Manix 2 and Para 2...
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Wow, this thread is really surprising. I'd say I've owned about 50 different spydercos (including 20 right now) and I've found golden is first. Seki and taiwan are about tied, it's interesting to see the views here.
One thing I will say is that Taichung is probably the most quality for the price, but at least for the particualr ones I've had and held (with exception of the Native, I've had 3 and they all were flawed in different ways) Golden has far and away been the best.
Strange.
One thing I will say is that Taichung is probably the most quality for the price, but at least for the particualr ones I've had and held (with exception of the Native, I've had 3 and they all were flawed in different ways) Golden has far and away been the best.
Strange.
Care to provide some actual facts to back up your accusation of "blatantly (and proven) dangerous" for either the Para 2 or Manix 2? I've never seen anyone suggest, much less prove, that Spyderco knives have a problem that is "dangerous". Yes, they've made changes to further improve locks (what Spyderco calls CQI), but your slanderous label of "dangerous" is neither informed nor accurate.
There's one thread up on the forums (with video) where some guy makes the 1:st gen Para 2 fail from light overstrikes following some carving. Ankerson has a test showing the Manix 2 fail from spinewhacks. Singularity has a video showing the known torque fail of the Military. The search functions works as well for you as it does for me...
Furthermore I can tell you from experience the FRN lock-backs are extremely weak. Apply a little force and you'll bend the liners or simply snap the lock (must be rated at less than 25-50 lbs?). The difference in those cases are that they're really not meant to be hard use folders and competes with the likes of Victorinox in a category where they shine (light use EDC razors) with some common sense and a pair of velvet gloves. Having a poorly constructed Military, Para 2 or Manix 2 lock fail on you in a tactical situation will on the other hand (accurately) best be described as "dangerous". It does not take some genius to understand that two "hard use" locks leaving the factory only to be redesigned when they fail horribly in front of the public are signs of sloppy testing and poor quality control even at something as basic as a few protos.
I wont bother trying to win you over though since Spyderco has the most protective fan base in the industry. However, it's my strong opinion that Spyderco has stagnated while their competition has moved forward. The customer service has dropped, the QC has dropped, and the tech currently being developed are more about gimmicks than actually improving safety and durability (after all; such things belongs to the knuckle dragging mob who does not understand how to use a cutting tool according to some, which is a fine mindset to move a stagnated company forward). This is my opinion and I'm entitled to it without it being labelled "slanderous". Contrary to what some of Spydercos die hard fan base would like to think it's not a criminal offence to criticize the company.
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You have clearly never used, or even seen, a comrepession lock. 
The failure modes, assuming someone doesn't tinker with the lock to prevent the locking tab from engaging, are (1) shear the stop pin, which is recessed in the liners, (2) crush the locking tab or (3) blow the stop pin out of the liners. ain't happenin', and that's not "fan base" talk.
The failure modes, assuming someone doesn't tinker with the lock to prevent the locking tab from engaging, are (1) shear the stop pin, which is recessed in the liners, (2) crush the locking tab or (3) blow the stop pin out of the liners. ain't happenin', and that's not "fan base" talk.There's one thread up on the forums (with video) where some guy makes the 1:st gen Para 2 fail from light overstrikes following some carving. Ankerson has a test showing the Manix 2 fail from spinewhacks. Singularity has a video showing the known torque fail of the Military. The search functions works as well for you as it does for me...
Furthermore I can tell you from experience the FRN lock-backs are extremely weak. Apply a little force and you'll bend the liners or simply snap the lock (must be rated at less than 25-50 lbs?). The difference in those cases are that they're really not meant to be hard use folders and competes with the likes of Victorinox in a category where they shine (light use EDC razors) with some common sense and a pair of velvet gloves. Having a poorly constructed Military, Para 2 or Manix 2 lock fail on you in a tactical situation will on the other hand (accurately) best be described as "dangerous". It does not take some genius to understand that two "hard use" locks leaving the factory only to be redesigned when they fail horribly in front of the public are signs of sloppy testing and poor quality control even at something as basic as a few protos.
I wont bother trying to win you over though since Spyderco has the most protective fan base in the industry. However, it's my strong opinion that Spyderco has stagnated while their competition has moved forward. The customer service has dropped, the QC has dropped, and the tech currently being developed are more about gimmicks than actually improving safety and durability (after all; such things belongs to the knuckle dragging mob who does not understand how to use a cutting tool according to some, which is a fine mindset to move a stagnated company forward). This is my opinion and I'm entitled to it without it being labelled "slanderous". Contrary to what some of Spydercos die hard fan base would like to think it's not a criminal offence to criticize the company.