Companies need to start issuing verified third-party HRC tests.

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How are the Rockwell and grains in your most recent purchase?

Redirect. Why would I trust an anonymous poster on the net to me what the "Rockwell" and what the "grains" are in anything? I wasn't born last night.

The idea that suddenly it's critical to suddenly add layers of bureaucracy and testing to certify something like a pocket knife is laughable. It doubles down on that ludicrous presumption of a demand for written in stone guarantees by granting the right to bless said items to a group with no accountability or history.

If you'll notice anyonen on here selling something like a knife or other product has a membership to do so and their real names and contact info along with their CV are posted in the clear. I don't see that in any of the current folks who've arrived to shout for this "feature". What I see is random folks putting out the equal to this classic quote.

My old man is a television repairman, he's got this ultimate set of tools. I can test it.
 
D Danke42 , I absolutely respect and support your right to not accept “trust me”. In this case, the tester has been third party verified by Manly, Tuya, and third party testers of their choosing.

Ultimately, though, it’s up to each of us to consider sources and weigh merit. Your choices are yours to make, and I respect that.
 
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D Danke42 , I absolutely respect and support your right to not accept “trust me”. In this case, the tester has been third party verified by Manly, Tuya, and third party testers of their choosing.

Ultimately, though, it’s up to each of us to consider sources and weigh merit. Your choices are yours to make, and I respect that.
I'm gonna need to see some documentation.
Also the latest hardness tester calibration report and the QA certification of the person who is doing the actual testing.
 
I'm gonna need to see some documentation.
Also the latest hardness tester calibration report and the QA certification of the person who is doing the actual testing.

We’re not putting personal information out there. I understand and respect your hesitation to accept ‘trust me’, and to that end, companies have each third party verified.

As such

nXckmPR.png


Again, you are welcome to apply your own filter, and to discard his tests and theirs.
 
We’re not putting personal information out there. I understand and respect your hesitation to accept ‘trust me’, and to that end, companies have each third party verified.

As such

nXckmPR.png


Again, you are welcome to apply your own filter, and to discard his tests and theirs.
Discarded.
 
It is no longer impressive that a company claims to use S35VN, M390, etc - the heat treatment is so vital in bringing out the advantageous qualities of modern steels that it seems ludicrous that this information isn’t already widely available.

With so many companies showing lower-than-advertised HRC values, it would be in the best interests of the consumers and the companies to establish a sense of trustworthiness by having independent testing, perhaps even batch-to-batch sampling.
For me, personally, this would just add a bit more expense to my purchases without giving me much info. Any company would make sure to send a properly treated sample and even if it was double blind a single blade being testing couldn't possibly be representative of an entire batch, much less a whole product line. Given that, in my knife journey, I simply regard edge retention and toughness as 'adequate' or 'lacking', I don't see how this would help me much.
 
The HCR per se , is not necessarily a indicator of superior performance .

E.g. : I've read of Ganzo D2 being measured at impressive hardiness ~62.5 but not being so great in actual edge retention etc testing .

I dream of some industry standard ,actual "proof testing " based on standardized performance based testing .

This would need to be done and certified by some independent testing authority from samples bought at random on the open market . Something like Consumers Reports , at their best .

I'm NOT holding my breath ! :rolleyes:
I heard that too with the Ganzo, getting normal D2 performance, not anything extreme, or even noticeably better. One fellow thought that maybe they weren't properly tempering after the quench, and instead taking it straight to the grinder post quench. I haven't noticed any chippiness in mine though, and it stropped back no issues
 
The testing that showed various knives having ridiculously low HRC numbers was a bit of surprise, I admit. I mean, I like some LionSteel knives but it seems likely they're doing an utter trash job at heat treating their blade steel. That said, IMO for the vast majority of users and the vast majority of use cases, hardness of blade steel is all but meaningless.

I am unwilling to believe that many are sharpening their knives all that frequently, and the only thing high hardness buys you is wear resistance. Unless you're a cook and we're talking about kitchen knives, or a wood carver and we're talking about carving knives, or some similarly specialized heavy wear use case that falls into the exception, not the rule, I just don't see folks sharpening all that frequently. If you're sharpening once every month, doubling performance only means sharpening every other month instead--big deal. With a little practice a moron could sharpen a dull knife with the bottom of a coffee cup in about thirty seconds (I know from experience, I'm a moron and I've been sharpening everything on coffee cups for a while now) so you're talking about saving a whole thirty seconds every two months in that scenario--not exactly life-changing.

Taking myself as an example, I carry a variety of pocket knives in a loose rotation, and it's rare that any of them needs sharpening. They've mostly got fancy blade steels and because I'm rotating them they don't take that much wear. Even the knives I do use heavily like my overused/abused 150mm Fujiwara Nashiji Petty in the kitchen, or my favorite whittling knives, really don't consume any noticeable time in their slightly more-frequent sharpening requirements.

I mean, do I think a company like LionSteel should do a better job at HT if those numbers are true? Yes. Does it really matter in most practical use? Hell no.
 
I agree in so far as it would actually help the companies branding and trustworthiness. I do not believe it should be forced, since there are those who already verify the treatments in the community..but how could it possibly hurt a company to go a step further to strengthen their claims?
 
The testing that showed various knives having ridiculously low HRC numbers was a bit of surprise, I admit. I mean, I like some LionSteel knives but it seems likely they're doing an utter trash job at heat treating their blade steel. That said, IMO for the vast majority of users and the vast majority of use cases, hardness of blade steel is all but meaningless.

I am unwilling to believe that many are sharpening their knives all that frequently, and the only thing high hardness buys you is wear resistance. Unless you're a cook and we're talking about kitchen knives, or a wood carver and we're talking about carving knives, or some similarly specialized heavy wear use case that falls into the exception, not the rule, I just don't see folks sharpening all that frequently. If you're sharpening once every month, doubling performance only means sharpening every other month instead--big deal. With a little practice a moron could sharpen a dull knife with the bottom of a coffee cup in about thirty seconds (I know from experience, I'm a moron and I've been sharpening everything on coffee cups for a while now) so you're talking about saving a whole thirty seconds every two months in that scenario--not exactly life-changing.

Taking myself as an example, I carry a variety of pocket knives in a loose rotation, and it's rare that any of them needs sharpening. They've mostly got fancy blade steels and because I'm rotating them they don't take that much wear. Even the knives I do use heavily like my overused/abused 150mm Fujiwara Nashiji Petty in the kitchen, or my favorite whittling knives, really don't consume any noticeable time in their slightly more-frequent sharpening requirements.

I mean, do I think a company like LionSteel should do a better job at HT if those numbers are true? Yes. Does it really matter in most practical use? Hell no.

I agree.

Your post (as well as many recent ones by others on this subject) makes me question the rationale of me paying more for the so-called super steels like M390 while in reality VG-10 and S30V shall be sufficiently good and a normal user may not even be able to tell the differences between these steels. If more and more people are thinking this way and acting accordingly, wouldn't we see a quick decline of sales of super steel knives? And how would that affect the knife industry in general?
 
I agree.

Your post (as well as many recent ones by others on this subject) makes me question the rationale of me paying more for the so-called super steels like M390 while in reality VG-10 and S30V shall be sufficiently good and a normal user may not even be able to tell the differences between these steels. If more and more people are thinking this way and acting accordingly, wouldn't we see a quick decline of sales of super steel knives? And how would that affect the knife industry in general?
A Timex Is probably just as reliable for keeping time as a Rolex, but the heart wants what the heart wants. ;)
 
People seem to not care about the steel as much as they care about the name alone.

Also this is bladeforums.com I don't understand some of the people's replies here. It baffles my mind. Heck we have a subsection for blacksmiths and a wealth of information among custom makers. I don't get why so many people are oblivious to these things.

It's probably more about jumping on the bandwagon than learning.
 
A Timex Is probably just as reliable for keeping time as a Rolex, but the heart wants what the heart wants. ;)

hmm...it is more like people finally find out that the QC and the level of craftsmanship of Rolex is actually not much different from those of Timex.
 
Gotta say, my honest response to the OP is this: Companies don't need to do jack ish. They don't owe anyone anything. Providing some chart that roughly 0.000001% of their customer base can even correctly interpret? What company would waste their time doing that? That's why they don't do it now. There aren't even any objectively right answers, because every steel is good for something and there's no one steel that's the best at every single quantifiable/qualitative metric.

It's just such an entitled thing to demand. Heh, I can just imagine Sal Glesser seeing this thread and thinking "Heh, these guys are high, anyway here's a question: WHO'S UP FOR ANOTHER PM2 SPRINT RUN IN AN AWESOME STEEL?!!!!! WOOOOOO!!!!!" then he throws up the deuces and walks out of the conference room.
 
People seem to not care about the steel as much as they care about the name alone.

Also this is bladeforums.com I don't understand some of the people's replies here. It baffles my mind. Heck we have a subsection for blacksmiths and a wealth of information among custom makers. I don't get why so many people are oblivious to these things.

It's probably more about jumping on the bandwagon than learning.
What would we learn from this test? I'm all about comprehensive testing, but this suggestion is far from that. If companies started doing it, that would be fine, I suppose, but regardless of the credentials of the third party tester it would be nothing more than advertising.
 
People seem to not care about the steel as much as they care about the name alone.

Also this is bladeforums.com I don't understand some of the people's replies here. It baffles my mind. Heck we have a subsection for blacksmiths and a wealth of information among custom makers. I don't get why so many people are oblivious to these things.

It's probably more about jumping on the bandwagon than learning.

My question would be, what significance does the blacksmithing section or the information our custom makers share have to do with this thread's subject? "I demand that ESEE start giving us an in-depth review of their steel composition and heat-treat protocol, along with a report on HRC". Custom makers who do their own protocol (or like many, send them to someone like Peters) has little to do with what production companies are doing, many of whom have inhouse treat protocols.

Also, it goes without saying, but for a lot of people (to include the millions of knife users who aren't BF members), if your M390 or 20cv is run a little soft and you aren't a Youtuber who beats a knife in an attempt to break it, you'll virtually never know the difference. Most people use knives to cut things, and unless you're breaking down a garage full of cardboard boxes, even 8cr13mov will last for a bit.
 
Suppose someone buys a high-end watch that is rated to 1000M depth. The watch maker knows 99.99% of their customers will never go past 200M so they go cheaper on the case tolerances and water seals to save on production costs. They calculate if that rare 1 in 10,000 customer actually pushes the watch to its limits an it fails, they can simply eat the replacement cost and still end up way ahead of actually making the watch consistently withstand 1000M of depth. So, if you were in the market for a high end watch or had already purchased one and then discovered this was a standard industry practice, wouldn't you be a little pissed? This is pretty much what's happening with HRC and knives, but you have so many people saying: oh, you'll never notice the difference anyway or oh, no one pushes M390 to its limits so it doesn't matter. I think if makers are stating 59-60HRC it d*mn well should be in that range. What we mostly have instead is: oh, you caught us. Here, have another knife on us; now please go away.
 
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