Company refusing to sell product because of flawed state law interpretation.

[raindog308]

You can buy gas cans in California, but there are strict environmental protection regulations regarding the certification (design) of the cans (and spouts) that are legal to sell in California. The problem with the restrictions is that it seriously limits the types of gas containers that are available in this state, and the types of "safety spouts" that meet California certification SUCK, and are a pain in the butt to use. They are also highly prone to breakage and failure due to their complicated design and function.

Whoa whoa whoa...you can...pump your own gas in California?!?

I assume millions of Californians are immolating themselves daily because this incredibly dangerous operation cannot be trusted to the general public.

Sincerely,
an Oregon resident

 

[DMG]

It’s true what Spey says, but WA also has a lot of non-urban places where your knife isn’t an issue unless you make it one by doing something stupid.

Parker

You are taking a big chance leaving your fate up to officer discretion.

 

[DocJD]

CA lawgivers have worked hard to build a certain uninviting reputation for the state .

Doesn't make me want to visit or even do business there .

The vendor in OP may not be fully justified in this case ...but I understand their attitude .

 

[Spey]

Whoa whoa whoa...you can...pump your own gas in California?!?

I assume millions of Californians are immolating themselves daily because this incredibly dangerous operation cannot be trusted to the general public.

Sincerely,
an Oregon resident

Curious ..., serious question.

Being an OR resident, could you explain your States position in that they allow citizens to carry and use switchblades legally but do not trust their people to pump their own gas ?

It has always made me wonder WTF (when passing through OR), when I have to wait on an attendant to perform such a rudimentary service like fueling a vehicle. Do not get me wrong, I am not complaining about having an attendant that provides services as I can remember when it was commonplace across most states that a gas station attendant would fuel your vehicle, wash your windows, check your vital fluids, check & air your tires, etc. It just seems odd to be denied purchase of fuel unless an attendant can provide the service.

 

[raindog308]

Being an OR resident, could you explain your States position in that they allow citizens to carry and use switchblades legally but do not trust their people to pump their own gas ?

No. I'm just a resident here, not a native. Then again, my wife is a native and she still scratches her head sometimes. We are not retiring here

Oregon is like a number of states where you have one big hyper-liberal city and then a vast rural area that is conservative. Several recent governors have only carried the two counties that represent Portland! Hence, the state is a mix of "blue" ideas that come from the city, with a state senate brake on things that are too crazy.

Also now that many major knife makers are established here (Benchmade, Leatherman, Gerber, CRKT, etc.) they don't want to mess with the tax revenue.

And really, do knives really generate big headlines? Two people were stabbed to death on the Portland city train and the coverage here was all about the motives. No one was talking about banning knives or knife limits. Compare/contrast with any shooting.

It has always made me wonder WTF (when passing through OR), when I have to wait on an attendant to perform such a rudimentary service like fueling a vehicle. Do not get me wrong, I am not complaining about having an attendant that provides services as I can remember when it was commonplace across most states that a gas station attendant would fuel your vehicle, wash your windows, check your vital fluids, check & air your tires, etc. It just seems odd to be denied purchase of fuel unless an attendant can provide the service.

Amusingly, they loosened requirements during the pandemic...first in "rural areas" and then later in Portland. The 7-11 near my house still allows you to pump your own gas. There was not a wave of immolations. As I said, ask anyone and it's a jobs program. Though it's a horrible jobs program because pumping gas only and will always only pay minimum wage with no chance for advancement. But I digress.

I, too, remember when people would pump for you though as I remember it, this was "premium" service, at least when I was a kid in the 70s. Cash discount if you pumped your own, full price if an attendant did it.

BTW, New Jersey also doesn't let you pump your own gas.

 

[Spey]

raindog308

Really appreciated reading your detailed replies. Thanks !

Much of what you wrote (PDX vs OR.) is also very common here in WA (SEA vs WA) :-/ (small state geographic w/high population & populism area (420 tongue in cheek) controlling entire state divided).

Interesting what you wrote about "they loosened requirements during pandemic ... first in rural areas" as a couple months ago I traveled down to Portland (multi-day trip) for a roadrace at P.I.R. and also journeyed out to Hood River. Each time we stopped for gas, I naturally got out to grab the nozzle only to be met with dumb looks from attendant stating I was not allowed to pump my own, however they had no interest is washing my windows, checking tire pressures & vital fluids, handling payment, etc. Perhaps we were not rural enough to enjoy the company of other folks you mentioned. I remember the transition (70's) you referenced where gas discounts were offered for pump-your-own patrons, and also the odd/even license fueling days & purchase limits of the 70's gas crunch and B.S. highways speed limit reductions.

RE: OP "Company refusing to sell product because of flawed state law interpretation."
I remember, not too many years ago, when WA State was doing the exact opposite ..., where Spring Assisted Knives aka assited knives (Kershaw Leek, etc., etc. ) could be found at virtually every retailer but were specifically illegal in various municipal codes for WA State. I believe we can thank Doug Ritter (Knife Rights) for getting that stupid nomenclature changed in our laws. Circa 2012 - HB2347 clarifies the definition of so-called “spring blade” knives (switchblades) so as to clearly make assisted-opening knives legal in the state. Much more work still needs to be done here though.

Regards,

 

[snuffle]

Not going to argue the pros and cons of California; I've lived here over 20 years by choice, and encourage everyone else to vote with their feet, too. It is a very big country, and I'm glad places aren't all the same.

As far as vendors who don't want to do business with me based on my location and/or their probably incorrect legal views, that's quite literally their business, and I have zero desire to argue with them. I do keep a list of vendors that have bounced me because my memory sucks. I just don't bother looking at their listings so I'm not disappointed again. There are still far more shops who want to sell me things I want than I have money, there is no hardship.

 

[catspa]

You are taking a big chance leaving your fate up to officer discretion.

Yah, so a couple of things about that.

1) Those goofy rules only apply in Seattle, slightly less liberal than Portland but coming up fast. I don’t go there often, but when I do it’s to work (not recreate, just work, eat, sleep, repeat). I might not be carrying a “dangerous knife”, but I’m driving a truck full of more dangerous tools and carrying a concealed pistol. I look kinda redneck and my clothes are dirty, so a cop takes one look, thinks “working man” and loses interest. Not a cop magnet by any stretch.

In my own county, and all the nearby (small) towns, the deputies and cops are pretty laid back, mostly looking for drunks and rowdies. If I’m not in a hurry, I can pull up and talk about knives a few minutes. They mostly carry throwdown knives, but I often offer to touch them up on my diamond rod if they’re dull. No big deal if I show them a machete.

2) Although it’s constitutionally disgusting, the law here has become a tool for revenue harvesting, by selective enforcement of victimless violations. Knife laws are among the smallest and least frequently used in that pursuit. If you drive a car on public roads, you’re subject to officer discretion in so many ways that the knife you’re carrying is the least of your worries.

The officers that I know are using up all their discretion on people who go stupid places and do stupid stuff with other stupid people. They have none left over to waste on me.

Parker

 

[DMG]

Yah, so a couple of things about that.

1) Those goofy rules only apply in Seattle, slightly less liberal than Portland but coming up fast. I don’t go there often, but when I do it’s to work (not recreate, just work, eat, sleep, repeat). I might not be carrying a “dangerous knife”, but I’m driving a truck full of more dangerous tools and carrying a concealed pistol. I look kinda redneck and my clothes are dirty, so a cop takes one look, thinks “working man” and loses interest. Not a cop magnet by any stretch.

In my own county, and all the nearby (small) towns, the deputies and cops are pretty laid back, mostly looking for drunks and rowdies. If I’m not in a hurry, I can pull up and talk about knives a few minutes. They mostly carry throwdown knives, but I often offer to touch them up on my diamond rod if they’re dull. No big deal if I show them a machete.

2) Although it’s constitutionally disgusting, the law here has become a tool for revenue harvesting, by selective enforcement of victimless violations. Knife laws are among the smallest and least frequently used in that pursuit. If you drive a car on public roads, you’re subject to officer discretion in so many ways that the knife you’re carrying is the least of your worries.

The officers that I know are using up all their discretion on people who go stupid places and do stupid stuff with other stupid people. They have none left over to waste on me.

Parker

I hope you are correct

 

[Spey]

"1) Those goofy rules only apply in Seattle, "

That is a grossly ignorant statement. Just a couple specific examples below.
The "goofy rules", related to legality/illegality of carry of knives, are prevalent to many municipalities of WA State other than just Seattle !##!
That is ..., unless (like a lot of folks) you consider everything West of the Cascade Mountains as "Seattle" ...?
(I have known some that consider everything West of the Cascades as "The Coast" which is really funny).
But, then as DMG said in post #62 above: "You are taking a big chance leaving your fate up to officer discretion."
..., and I would recommend you stop making claims related to laws you are simply not familiar with ;-)
Italics below are direct quotes from the Muni-Codes as of today.

1) Example: Renton Municipal Code
("Snap Blade" box cutters specifically illegal)
6-22-1: Snap Blade Knives Prohibited
6-22-1 SNAP BLADE KNIVES PROHIBITED:
It shall be unlawful to display, sell, give away, purchase, or possess any knife having a blade which is or can be concealed in its handle and ejected therefrom either manually or by mechanical or spring device and commonly known as a snap blade knife. This Chapter shall not apply to fixed blade knives having blades which pivot on or fold into their respective handles and can be opened only manually. (Ord. 1525, 9-6-55)



2) Example: Kent Municipal Code
(One shopping area in Kent specifically limits all knives to 3" max blade length, which is even more restrictive than Seattle currently at 3.5", but NO fixed-blades, last I checked)
9.02.880 Possession of firearms or dangerous weapons at Kent Commons - Unlawful.
A. Subject to the exceptions set forth in subsections (B) and (C) of the section it shall be unlawful for any person to possess a firearm; a dagger, sword, or knife with a blade in excess of three inches; or any other weapon apparently capable of producing bodily harm, inside of the premises known as the Kent Commons located at 525 North Fourth Avenue in the city of Kent.
------------------------------

I could go on & on ..., but it's really kinda depressing how dumb/ignorant/goofy and inconsistent the laws are across the various muni-codes of our state.
Please understand I am not saying you're gonna go to jail for carrying a "Snap Blade" in Renton, or a >3" blade while shopping or seeing a movie at Kent Commons, I am simply saying we have a BUNCH of stupid knife laws in WA State that vary by municipality. I have multiple City and State LEO's in the family, and because the laws are so wacky/diverse they tend to default to the basic intent clause.

 

[catspa]

That is a grossly ignorant statement.

It may be taken as slightly (or even somewhat) ignorant, but the codes you quoted apply in Seattle, and not elsewhere. Other places have goofy rules too, hell every jurisdiction has goofy rules of some kind. Just start with building codes and how they’re administered…

It is certainly prudent for a person to familiarize themself with the laws of their jurisdiction.* That said, don’t make the mistake of thinking that urban WA is all the WA there is. Just because you and your townsfolk cluster together like a colony of ants, doesn’t make that the way WA is. Geographically, more of the state is sparsely populated than crowded.

..., and I would recommend you stop making claims related to laws you are simply not familiar with ;-)

I recommend you stop inferring inaccurate claims into my comments. I am naturally more familiar with the laws of my area (which are nowhere near as goofy as Seattle rules). I also recommend you stop implying to out of state readers that anywhere in WA, you’re only a fraction of an inch of knife length away from a cop hassle. You and I both know that’s not true.

* I agree that WA contains some f*k’d up knife laws. I also agree that statewide pre-emption would be preferable. We have it on firearms. We don’t have it on knives, or chainsaws, or carpenter tools. Cops don’t seem to care much about those in many places.

Parker

 

[Spey]

It may be taken as slightly (or even somewhat) ignorant, but the codes you quoted apply in Seattle, and not elsewhere. Other places have goofy rules too, hell every jurisdiction has goofy rules of some kind. Just start with building codes and how they’re administered…

It is certainly prudent for a person to familiarize themself with the laws of their jurisdiction.* That said, don’t make the mistake of thinking that urban WA is all the WA there is. Just because you and your townsfolk cluster together like a colony of ants, doesn’t make that the way WA is. Geographically, more of the state is sparsely populated than crowded.

..., and I would recommend you stop making claims related to laws you are simply not familiar with ;-)

I recommend you stop inferring inaccurate claims into my comments. I am naturally more familiar with the laws of my area (which are nowhere near as goofy as Seattle rules). I also recommend you stop implying to out of state readers that anywhere in WA, you’re only a fraction of an inch of knife length away from a cop hassle. You and I both know that’s not true.

* I agree that WA contains some f*k’d up knife laws. I also agree that statewide pre-emption would be preferable. We have it on firearms. We don’t have it on knives, or chainsaws, or carpenter tools. Cops don’t seem to care much about those in many places.

Parker

Parker,

Please ..., OMGosh !##!

I am only going to address your first sentence, as it so exemplifies points I made in earlier post.
"It may be taken as slightly (or even somewhat) ignorant, but the codes you quoted apply in Seattle, and not elsewhere."

Uhmmm ..., NO, the codes I quoted were from the municipal codes of the two different cities of Renton, WA and Kent, WA.
Neither of these two cities are part of Seattle and/or have anything to do with the municipal codes of Seattle.
It appears you are doing something I mentioned earlier, thinking and or believing that everywhere West of the Cascade Mountain Range is part of Seattle :-/ ????

Don't mean to come off as argumentative ..., but we do need to at least attempt to understand how laws and jurisdictions apply to location specific laws and codes. My entire commentary on the subject has been related to how a person in WA can simply step across a street to find laws related to knife possession, ownership, etc. can be vastly different and how messed up this is in our state.

 

[catspa]

You’re absolutely right, that’s messed up. It’s locally messed up, basically in the urban areas near I-5. Get 50 miles off the freeway, less in some directions, and you arrive at places where it’s not so messed up.

Unfortunately, the urban core has enough votes to overcome the non-urban voters, and eventually they might extend their goofy local rules into state goofy rules, but it’s happening in non-knife aspects first. No goofy knife rules in Mason or Cowlitz or Skagit or Kittitas.

You’d think that a couple pro-knife guys from WA could agree on what to tell a CA member considering moving to our state. How bout something like this:

“Dude, some jurisdictions here contain some FUBAR’ed knife laws. For that and other reasons, a BF member like yourself should research beforehand, and try to choose a location where those laws don’t exist. You’ll have plenty of choices. Best of luck to you.”

Throw a dart at the map. If it lands near Seattle or Tacoma (or Vancouver, which has kinda become a suburb of Portland), pull it out and throw it again. Get out where there’s dirt instead of concrete, and chances are you’ll do okay.

I realize that being from LA, homesteading in Asotin county might be more culture shock than he’s willing to accept. S’okay with me.

But I stand by my original statement - the goofy rules you listed (and others you didn’t list) are localized municipal codes, and most of WA doesn’t have them.

Parker