Comparing tough steels.

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Rockwelledge75

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My orginal thread was closed due to people posting bogus numbers. So instead with this thread I'd like to take it in a different direction.

If anyone has any REAL world experience using S5, k600 or 300m steels in a large chopper or axe let me know.

Also any experience with making ultra fine edges that didn't chip out no matter what you subjected them too would also be helpful.


Thanks!
 
Those aren't steels you're going to commonly find used in axes or choppers, so temper your expectations accordingly regarding responses.
 
I was looking forward to this thread as I love tough steels AND fine edges, but unfortunately I have nothing to offer, and im unfamiliar with the steels you are interested in.


*still interested with the findings
 
Not a problem guys, I figured it would be difficult to find information about these anyways. S5 used to be used more than it is today, but that was several years ago and even then it was phasing out quickly. The others don't even seem to have reached the blade market at all for knives, choppers or axes, so anything we managed to find would be from some one off maker doing a limited run I'm sure.

it's frustrating because I know these steels are tough. Not as tough as that one guy was saying in my previous thread. for example, S5 is listed at 15vnotch ftlbs on AZom, which is very high, as V notch is not the same as C notch at all, and although it's almost impossible to extrapolate that out into C notch (what's most commonly used for knife steels) in general, broadly speckling C notch ratings will be any where from 5 to 7 times greater than a v notch rating.

Again, speaking as broadly as possible here, I don't want this thread to be closed, as always do your own research when trying to estimate where these steels fall at, that's my disclaimer. 🙂
 
Hugofeyman told me in the previous thread that 300m is 4340 enhanced by a fairly lage silicon addition. I'm going to assume the silicon probably only enahnces the toughness with higher tempering temperatures when compared at the same tempering temperatures in 4340, as such maybe at the typical hardness that's achieved with these steels, roughly 55hrc the numbers we can pull 4340 might be about the same, and only when looking at for example hrc 53 4340 vs hrc 53 300m would the 300m be tougher.

Again, just speculation on my part as an amature metalurigst, but if that's the case 300m might not be any more suitable for blades than 4340, because any additional toughness would be at the sacrifice of hardness and most blades start to become useless to us at less than 55hrc.
 
Sorry about my poor info from before. My apologies OP. I’ll definitely be watching this one and learning instead. 🙏
 
AusLoX said:
Sorry about my poor info from before. My apologies OP. I’ll definitely be watching this one and learning instead. 🙏
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AusLoX said:
Sorry about my poor info from before. My apologies OP. I’ll definitely be watching this one and learning instead. 🙏
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No worries.

I'm assuming those really large numbers you were posting were probably C notch numbers, and not V notch. it's a common mistake.

I'm not sure where you were pulling the data for Z tuff though, that was far out there. I never would expect a steel with .7% carbon and 7% cromioum to be anywhere near that, regardless of nickel additions or powder metallurgy process.
 
I'd hazard to say that if you want any sort of data on those steels within the context of axes you'll probably have to generate it yourself. Perhaps teaming up with a maker to have a head or three made, with the understanding that it'll only have significance for the given steel within the context of the specific geometry and heat treatment.

I think the biggest issue is just that there's largely not much need. Simple steels run just soft enough to be convenient to file are hard enough to take and hold a good edge without being brittle. I don't think I've seen any meaningful failures in axes hardened between 55-58 RC that would have been saved by being tougher. Chipping just tends not to be the kind of edge damage taken and the things that dent an edge will dent basically any edge so long as it's still made of steel. Edges aren't meant to hit rocks, but rocks and dirt are the number 1 sources of damage. So it's more an issue of "why bother with comparatively exotic steels when the basic ones are fine?" If really pushing it into increased toughness at high hardness, then you'd hit the point where edge damage is less able to be fixed in the field, and would become more of a detriment than an advantage.

But if you end up doing any experiments personally, even if it's just anecdotal experience with a head made from one of those steels, it'd be interesting to hear your experiences.
 
FortyTwoBlades said:
I'd hazard to say that if you want any sort of data on those steels within the context of axes you'll probably have to generate it yourself. Perhaps teaming up with a maker to have a head or three made, with the understanding that it'll only have significance for the given steel within the context of the specific geometry and heat treatment.

I think the biggest issue is just that there's largely not much need. Simple steels run just soft enough to be convenient to file are hard enough to take and hold a good edge without being brittle. I don't think I've seen any meaningful failures in axes hardened between 55-58 RC that would have been saved by being tougher. Chipping just tends not to be the kind of edge damage taken and the things that dent an edge will dent basically any edge so long as it's still made of steel. Edges aren't meant to hit rocks, but rocks and dirt are the number 1 sources of damage. So it's more an issue of "why bother with comparatively exotic steels when the basic ones are fine?" If really pushing it into increased toughness at high hardness, then you'd hit the point where edge damage is less able to be fixed in the field, and would become more of a detriment than an advantage.

But if you end up doing any experiments personally, even if it's just anecdotal experience with a head made from one of those steels, it'd be interesting to hear your experiences.
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It would be interesting to see 3 small hatchets made with the exact same geometry of these 3 steels and grind the edges particular thin, maybe 15 DPS for example and then just go to town on some seasoned oak and see which one lasts the longest without a chip. If after that no chip happens then purposely hit a rock with all 3 and inspect the damage afterwards to see which one faired best.
 
Rockwelledge75 said:
It would be interesting to see 3 small hatchets made with the exact same geometry of these 3 steels and grind the edges particular thin, maybe 15 DPS for example and then just go to town on some seasoned oak and see which one lasts the longest without a chip. If after that no chip happens then purposely hit a rock with all 3 and inspect the damage afterwards to see which one faired best.
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As a control you'd also need one in a plain carbon steel somewhere between 1055-1080 at the same hardness or else the results won't have anything to compare them to.
 
Rockwelledge75 said:
Sounds like a plan!


Any takers guys??? Make a video if you do it! 😁
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Just a thought - since axes are generally going to be more difficult to make than knives, why not just make/have made a few identical knives in these steels and test them?

I’ll note that I’ve used 5160 extensively for chopping wood with knives and a Counsil Tools axe, all with fairly thin edges, and I never get more than micro-chipping unless I hit a rock. INFI (~A8 mod) is the only steel I’ve used that seems even less prone to chipping.
 
scdub said:
Just a thought - since axes are generally going to be more difficult to make than knives, why not just make/have made a few identical knives in these steels and test them?

I’ll note that I’ve used 5160 extensively for chopping wood with knives and a Counsil Tools axe, all with fairly thin edges, and I never get more than micro-chipping unless I hit a rock. INFI (~A8 mod) is the only steel I’ve used that seems even less prone to chipping.
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Yea, I mean if we wanted to go the el cheapo rout just to find out we could just take 1"x14" 1/8th inch thick pieces of bar stock, not even bother putting much of a bevel on it, and then just hone an ultra fine edge to the thing of say 12 to 15 DPS and go to town on some seasoned oak, or hell, just skip the oak and go right for a cinderblock, make it real simple, we'll get data quick!.

Don't even have to put a handle on the tang, just wear gloves when hacking away lol.
 
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Anyone ever hear of aeromet 100 steel? this was mentioned in the other thread by someone. seems to be a rather odd steel, less than .3% carbon, seems to get most of it's hardness from cobalt. On one hand hand I see how this stuff could potentially be very tough, but on the other hand I've heard large cobalt additions can decrease toughness, so who knows.
 
I agree with the idea of testing though you will find that deformation from insufficient hardness is often the failure mode as well so you might decide higher hardness is necessary. Also different edge geometries will change the balance somewhat so you will learn something for one geometry but not necessarily for another.
 
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Larrin said:
I agree with the idea of testing though you will find that deformation from insufficient hardness is often the failure mode as well so you might decide higher hardness is necessary. Also different edge geometries will change the balance somewhat so you will learn something for one geometry but not necessarily for another.
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If you were to take your best guess which one of these steels would have the best strength or resistance to deformation Larrin? Would elements such as molybdenum or silicon give a little more strength than just the HRC numbers would suggest? Pretty sure all 3 of these steels can reach at least hrc 55, and probably topout around 57 or so.
 
Well guys I came across some charts at Bohler and apparently k600 steel is slightly less tough than s5 steel, it's kind of in-between s7 and s5 but closer to s5. So that settles that. So I think of the 3 listed here 300m should be the undisputed champion of toughness seeing as it has .1% carbon less than the other too and 1.8% nickel, and a decent amount of silicon.

One other steel did catch my attention though and that was W360. Bohler claims S5 toughness with wear resistance around A2 steel.

Pretty impressive if you ask me.
 
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