Comparing tough steels.

Rockwelledge75 said:
Well guys I came across some charts at Bohler and apparently k600 steel is slightly less tough than s5 steel, it's kind of in-between s7 and s5 but closer to s5. So that settles that. So I think of the 3 listed here 300m should be the undisputed champion of toughness seeing as it has .1% carbon less than the other too and 1.8% nickel, and a decent amount of silicon.

One other steel did catch my attention though and that was W360. Bohler claims S5 toughness with wear resistance around A2 steel.

Pretty impressive if you ask me.
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Can you please share where you got the info that S5 is tougher than k600? At 60hrc I'm sure that's true, but if k600 is heat treated correctly, to achieve it's optimal toughness (that heat treatment will give a Rockwell hardness of 54-56), it will be on theory tougher than s5.

I've been there searching for new ultra tough steels. At the present, although I still look from time to time for super tough steels, I care more about the maker than the steel. Having said this, if you can find Calmax at decent thickness, I would go with it. It was one of the steel choices of my all time knives guru Cliff Stamp (RIP, Master). A8mod it's also perfect for a big chopper knife, as is 8670, 15n20 and 5160.
 
hugofeynman said:
Can you please share where you got the info that S5 is tougher than k600? At 60hrc I'm sure that's true, but if k600 is heat treated correctly, to achieve it's optimal toughness (that heat treatment will give a Rockwell hardness of 54-56), it will be on theory tougher than s5.

I've been there searching for new ultra tough steels. At the present, although I still look from time to time for super tough steels, I care more about the maker than the steel. Having said this, if you can find Calmax at decent thickness, I would go with it. It was one of the steel choices of my all time knives guru Cliff Stamp (RIP, Master). A8mod it's also perfect for a big chopper knife, as is 8670, 15n20 and 5160.
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I had to contact a sales representative and they sent me a chart. unfortunately this chart did not say where these steels place at specific hardnesses and only gave general placements. I'm not sure if S5 can reach hrc 60, I was pretty sure hrc 58-59 was basically maxing it out, but I could be wrong.

When you say you think k600 would be tougher between 54-56 hrc are you saying that you think it would be tougher than s5 at 54-56hrc or are you saying at 54-56hrc that you expect it to be tougher than the more typical 57-58 that s5 might be hardened too?

15n20 is awesome steel, I've worked with a little bit, and looking at the charts 8670 is right up there with it, but these steels I'm talking about that are beyond s7 in toughness are just on another level past that. even ztuff is tougher than 15n20, and ztuff is still a hair below s7 which of course is still below s5.
 
"More" is not necessarily "better", it's worth noting. That is to say that increasing one metric can sometimes be at the detriment of others, or even sometimes make things worse. That's not a specific statement regarding things here or these particular materials, but just something to keep in mind when looking at charts. They very often don't tell the whole story.
 
Rockwelledge75 said:
I had to contact a sales representative and they sent me a chart. unfortunately this chart did not say where these steels place at specific hardnesses and only gave general placements. I'm not sure if S5 can reach hrc 60, I was pretty sure hrc 58-59 was basically maxing it out, but I could be wrong.

When you say you think k600 would be tougher between 54-56 hrc are you saying that you think it would be tougher than s5 at 54-56hrc or are you saying at 54-56hrc that you expect it to be tougher than the more typical 57-58 that s5 might be hardened too?

15n20 is awesome steel, I've worked with a little bit, and looking at the charts 8670 is right up there with it, but these steels I'm talking about that are beyond s7 in toughness are just on another level past that. even ztuff is tougher than 15n20, and ztuff is still a hair below s7 which of course is still below s5.
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I mean k600 at his peak toughness (wish gives an 54-56hrc) should be tougher than S5 at his peak toughness (57???58????59hrc????). Less carbon and high nickel should make k600 one of the toughest steels, above s series.
 
hugofeynman said:
I mean k600 at his peak toughness (wish gives an 54-56hrc) should be tougher than S5 at his peak toughness (57???58????59hrc????). Less carbon and high nickel should make k600 one of the toughest steels, above s series.
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Theoretically yes, and I would have agreed with you if I hadn't seen that chart.

I did ask the representative why he thinks this is when there's so much nickel in k600, and the only explanation he could give me is that it's kind of a "dirty" steel, and not being produced as cleanly as some of the S5 out there, and these other inclusions are what's bringing it down a little.

Like wise he said W360 is an extrmemly clean ark remelted product that is boosting it's toughness beyond what you think a 3% Molybdenum steel could achieve.

Again this is just what I'm being told by one sales representative though, don't take my word for it, talk to these guys for yourself, or do some testing.

I don't want to mislead anyone here, just sharing what I've been told.
 
Look at this table. K320 is S7 and k319 is A8. And S5 is marginally tougher than S7, so k600 should be tougher.

K320 - BÖHLER Edelstahl GmbH & Co KG

BÖHLER K320 is a 3% Cr-Mo-V-Cold Work Tool Steel with high impact strength and moderate wear resistance for shock-loaded punching and compacting tools, machine knives and mould plates with a hardness of up to 58 HRC
www.bohler-edelstahl.com www.bohler-edelstahl.com
 

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Rockwelledge75 said:
Theoretically yes, and I would have agreed with you if I hadn't seen that chart.

I did ask the representative why he thinks this is when there's so much nickel in k600, and the only explanation he could give me is that it's kind of a "dirty" steel, and not being produced as cleanly as some of the S5 out there, and these other inclusions are what's bringing it down a little.

Like wise he said W360 is an extrmemly clean ark remelted product that is boosting it's toughness beyond what you think a 3% Molybdenum steel could achieve.

Again this is just what I'm being told by one sales representative though, don't take my word for it, talk to these guys for yourself, or do some testing.

I don't want to mislead anyone here, just sharing what I've been told.
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W360 is like Uddeholm Unimax, extremely tough high temperature steels, I'm interested only in extremely tough cold work steels.
 
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hugofeynman said:
Look at this table. K320 is S7 and k319 is A8. And S5 is marginally tougher than S7, so k600 should be tougher.

K320 - BÖHLER Edelstahl GmbH & Co KG

BÖHLER K320 is a 3% Cr-Mo-V-Cold Work Tool Steel with high impact strength and moderate wear resistance for shock-loaded punching and compacting tools, machine knives and mould plates with a hardness of up to 58 HRC
www.bohler-edelstahl.com www.bohler-edelstahl.com
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Sure, and I'm not saying you're wrong. Only passing along what I saw and was told.

Here this is what they sent me, you can evaluate it yourself and make up your own mind.


https://imgur.com/a/Vl16sVM
 
hugofeynman said:
W360 is like Uddeholm Unimax, extremely tough high temperature steels, I'm interested only in extremely tough cold work steels.
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W360 has some hot hardness and is tough at high hardness doesn’t mean it is not tough at normal temperature.
Judging by its composition, it is also extremely tough at normal temperature, at very decent hardness like around 57rc
 
Laurarium said:
W360 has some hot hardness and is tough at high hardness doesn’t mean it is not tough at normal temperature.
Judging by its composition, it is also extremely tough at normal temperature, at very decent hardness like around 57rc
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And what about low temperature? It's not optimized for that, like k600 (4%nickel) is.
 
Laurarium said:
W360 in deed is not optimised for low temperature toughness,thus its toughness would drop quicker than k600.
However, its shear toughness would still make it a very tough steel.
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I would also suspect it's toughness at normal room tempreture, or even temperetures of 40 to 50 degeress would not be any lower that other steels in it's range like k600 and S5. Honestly it's a great choice for anyone looking for an extremely tough steel that's not doing ice fishing in the arctic lol.

There should be no reason why this steel would perform any less than s5 at any temperature range though, and certainly not room temperature and higher, and S5 is about as tough as it gets for steels with acceptable hardness for knives and axes, with the one possible exception of 300m being just a little bit tougher.
 
All I can say is I've never had an axe head catastrophically fail on me, so I don't need tougher steel than is usually used. I've also experienced that at 58 RC and up axes become difficult to file, so I don't need them harder, either, because hitting a rock with super steels still dulls the steel, and that's about the only sort of damage I'm likely to run into and being able to file out the damage to make a quick field repair trumps having an even harder bit. So my hardness and toughness needs are already met by conventional steels, and those steels with good heat treatment are able to support good geometries. All told, it would be interesting to know, but turning the raw steel into an axe takes time and effort that's better spent doing other things. I do hope someone takes you up on your offer, but I hope you can at least see where the lack of takers might stem from.
 
What 42Blades said ! The exception is axes/hatchets, like woodcarving and shaping in the shop, that are never used where they can come in contact with something that would dull them. A shop axe would be OK at 58- 60 with me. Now you might drop your shop axe on a concrete floor, but then I have never dropped an axe in 70 + years of using one.
 
FortyTwoBlades said:
All I can say is I've never had an axe head catastrophically fail on me, so I don't need tougher steel than is usually used. I've also experienced that at 58 RC and up axes become difficult to file, so I don't need them harder, either, because hitting a rock with super steels still dulls the steel, and that's about the only sort of damage I'm likely to run into and being able to file out the damage to make a quick field repair trumps having an even harder bit. So my hardness and toughness needs are already met by conventional steels, and those steels with good heat treatment are able to support good geometries. All told, it would be interesting to know, but turning the raw steel into an axe takes time and effort that's better spent doing other things. I do hope someone takes you up on your offer, but I hope you can at least see where the lack of takers might stem from.
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No biggie. i understand not everyone is a steel geek like me that just likes to experiment to learn about stuff.

By the way, I don't think 300m can get harder than 56hrc after a proper temper, so it wouldn't be to hard. The general idea here is to make a thinner geometre axe and then abuse it to see if it wont chip on rocks and things like that. obviously yes, no matter the steel in question, even super steels, will receive some damage on a rock. We haven't made adamantium yet!
 
Old Axeman said:
What 42Blades said ! The exception is axes/hatchets, like woodcarving and shaping in the shop, that are never used where they can come in contact with something that would dull them. A shop axe would be OK at 58- 60 with me. Now you might drop your shop axe on a concrete floor, but then I have never dropped an axe in 70 + years of using one.
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Yeah, once again, this isn't some very hard steel. It gets hard but it's more of what you'd expect from s7 or 1050 carbon, just tougher. Actually maybe this stuff would be better suited for making a through hardened katana. that would really test it's capabilities. Unfortunately the pieces I have are way to thick and way to short for a katana blade.
 
I'm also a tough steel junkie, but I'm calmer now. Simple steels like 1055 (machetes and tomahawks),1075, 8670, 6150, 4340 (tomahawks) and 52100 are all I use now. Never chipped my Gransfors bruk American felling axe felling hard woods like acacia, neither my Condor Discord machete, so it seems like geometry is also a factor to consider.
 
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