Concerns About Survive! Business and Misleading Lead Time Estimates

[Anttheknee]

I haven't been here in a very long time. I was shocked when I finally came back to this forum and saw this post. I would like to let Guy and Ellie know that I still support them and I am still patiently waiting for my GSO 12. I love my old gen 4.1 so much. It has been my go to knife ever since I purchased it and I stand by my opinion tha Survive makes the highest quality blades on the market today. Whatever is troubling you guys I sincerely hope it passes and things take a turn for the better.

 

[Casinostocks]

I was interested in the M5 too but, after further research I have learned it is rather thick behind the edge(meaning lower cutting performance) and I have always been uncertain about Sleipner. I have read a few reviews and it seems like it has poor corrosion resistance(even when compared to D2) and isn't particularly durable for a tough use knife like the M5. Here is one review that describes it performance but, for the M7.

http://hardcorecampingtools.blogspot.ca/2014/08/lionsteel-m7-and-sleipner-steel-ok-here.html

One day I would like to try one of Survive's knives but, for now, I have cancelled my orders and dont agree with the way they have been doing things. Their actions over the last year or so have made me question whether I even want to ever support their company again unfortunately.

OT regarding the theme of this sad thread but to just expound on what you had stated:

I stumbled upon Survive! last March precisely because I had cancelled a couple of LionSteel and DPx orders. I had cancelled the LS M7 precisely because of the reasons which you have cited. IMHO, Sleipner does not hold a candle to the CPM 3V!

Back to topic, I hope that Survive! delivers on its commitments and I'd love to see happy grins on the faces of the usual suspects on here. I've made some GREAT Blade Forums Friends right on the subforum. They are some very awesome folks on here who deserve and have earned the rights (IMO) to be treated above and beyond the call of duty by the Survive! brass.

 

[mlmcasual]

I haven't been here in a very long time. I was shocked when I finally came back to this forum and saw this post. I would like to let Guy and Ellie know that I still support them and I am still patiently waiting for my GSO 12. I love my old gen 4.1 so much. It has been my go to knife ever since I purchased it and I stand by my opinion tha Survive makes the highest quality blades on the market today. Whatever is troubling you guys I sincerely hope it passes and things take a turn for the better.

Well, I think 99% agree the product are fantastic. That has never been an issue. Had it been, I doubt any of this would have existed because what would even be the point of caring?

Not meant as dig against you, but I never understood that statement as a proclamation "I support person X". They are not running for an elected office you are involved with them because of product purchase. Sorry, it just strikes me as a bizarre statement contextually.
No one just supports people, we support what they represent, say, and do. And that support is not a blank check written with no expiration date. But I do respect your perspective and loyalty, even if I don't share it.
If you don't mind me asking, do YOU have in mind a personal cutoff date of waiting for your GSO 12? For example, what if you have have not got yours by Spring of 2018? Would you cancel your order? Just curious.

 

[Anttheknee]

No, I would not cancel my order. As a Business owner I understand that there are risks involved with starting a new business. It is with that understanding that I placed my order for the 12. I view my purchase more as an investment in the company and less as a direct product purchase. I placed my order knowing full well the possiblity that I may never get my product. It would suck yea, but I'm still in it despite the risk. If I cancel my order I only guarantee that I will recieve nothing.

 

[mlmcasual]

No, I would not cancel my order. As a Business owner I understand that there are risks involved with starting a new business. It is with that understanding that I placed my order for the 12. I view my purchase more as an investment in the company and less as a direct product purchase. I placed my order knowing full well the possiblity that I may never get my product. It would suck yea, but I'm still in it despite the risk. If I cancel my order I only guarantee that I will recieve nothing.

WOW.. fascinating. You really illustrate the diversity of customers and thought process regarding Survive. It would never occur to me to consider buying a product with no tangible return other then the product I purchased as investing into the company. And as you say not even expecting to get what you paid for! Fascinating!
I respect and appreciate your candor and honesty. It does context and full disclosure to others. I definitively don't share your outlook of your purchases or what your business relationship with Survive represents (by a mile) but I respect your opinion and honesty.

 

[Anttheknee]

Sometimes you just have to take a few risks and honestly I do have faith that they will eventually turn things around anyway. No startup is without hiccups.

 

[amdmaxx]

Buying knives is NOT an investment! Giving survive your money for a year is NOT an investment, it's an interest free loan to GUY and Co, then if you are patient and lucky enough - you get a knife in exchange for your hard earned money.. investment is something that grows, pays dividends and is rewarding to investors.. nothing rewarding with many canceled orders and upset customers..


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[trevitrace]

Knifes!

 

[Anttheknee]

Buying knifes is NOT an investment! Giving survive your money for a year is NOT an investment, it's an interest free Loan to GUY and Co, then if you are patient and lucky enough - you get a knife in exchange for your hard earned money.. investment is something that grows, pays dividends and is rewarding to investors.. nothing rewarding with many canceled orders and upset customers..


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That is your opinion. to me it is an investment because if I do get the knife I guarantee you it will be worth more then what I paid for it. Also, all knife purchases IMHO are investments by nature. It the tool is functional and you get enough use out of it then you have realized a return on your investment. These are my views and I understand people who are upset. I just happen to not be one of them at this time.

 

[ncrockclimb]

That is your opinion. to me it is an investment because if I do get the knife I guarantee you it will be worth more then what I paid for it. Also, all knife purchases IMHO are investments by nature. It the tool is functional and you get enough use out of it then you have realized a return on your investment. These are my views and I understand people who are upset. I just happen to not be one of them at this time.

I appreciate you explaining your position. It is not the way I look at it now, but I had a similar view at one time. I sincerely hope that you get your GSO 12 and enjoy it. I will look forward to seeing pics of it (and a lot of other S!K's amazing knives being used).

 

[amdmaxx]

That is your opinion. to me it is an investment because if I do get the knife I guarantee you it will be worth more then what I paid for it. Also, all knife purchases IMHO are investments by nature. It the tool is functional and you get enough use out of it then you have realized a return on your investment. These are my views and I understand people who are upset. I just happen to not be one of them at this time.

It's not an opinion, I provided a definition and facts.
Look up a definition of investment.. you are one of those who thinks car is in investment probably too. These are goods, not investments.. purchasing apple stock for $1 and selling it for $127 is an investment.. paying for something you are not receiving for a year+ is an interest free loan to a vendor.. you are not becoming part owner of the company (investment in stocks do that).
And you can't can't guarantee your knife will be worth more later on - supply and demand control the market value of your knife.. and try posting on eBay your 4.7 for $300 and linking it here: you will get scolded here as a flipper and money hungry public enemy #1


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[chiral.grolim]

It's not an opinion, I provided a definition and facts.
Look up a definition of investment.. you are one of those who thinks car is in investment probably too. These are goods, not investments.. purchasing apple stock for $1 and selling it for $127 is an investment.. paying for something you are not receiving for a year+ is an interest free loan to a vendor.. you are not becoming part owner of the company (investment in stocks do that).
And you can't can't guarantee your knife will be worth more later on - supply and demand control the market value of your knife.. and try posting on eBay your 4.7 for $300 and linking it here: you will get scolded here as a flipper and money hungry public enemy #1

Buying knifes is NOT an investment! Giving survive your money for a year is NOT an investment, it's an interest free Loan to GUY and Co, then if you are patient and lucky enough - you get a knife in exchange for your hard earned money.. investment is something that grows, pays dividends and is rewarding to investors.. nothing rewarding with many canceled orders and upset customers..

First off, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Investment

To invest is to allocate money (or sometimes another resource, such as time) in the expectation of some benefit in the future...
...Investment generally results in acquiring an asset, also called an investment. If the asset is available at a price worth investing, it is normally expected either to generate income, or to appreciate in value, so that it can be sold at a higher price (or both).

Second, investment does NOT guarantee growth and dividend payment.

Third, cancelled-orders = sold stock that someone else can buy. Dividend-payment is the knife delivered when the loan reaches maturity.

Finally, my GSO-4.7 Starter order was $189 (including 10% discount). Price today: $239
I loaned Guy & Ellie $189 and, 20 months later, that loan reached maturity with 26.5% interest earned, should I choose to sell at the factory price. Of course, on the secondary market the prices can be higher... YMMV *shrug*

Please tell me of ANY other investment available to me with that kind of return.

And the best part - i don't have to sell the "asset" to appreciate the value of the investment, because the "asset" is a tool whose use can be of value. Just like one can cut firewood with a hand-saw or invest in a chainsaw
Maybe your problem is actually one of comparing "capital goods" to "consumer goods"?

Capital goods and consumer goods are classified based on how they are used. A capital good is any good deployed to help increase future production. The most common capital goods are property, plant and equipment, or PP&E. Consumer goods are any goods that are not capital goods; they are goods used by consumers and have no future productive use

Which type of "good" would you consider a knife?

 

[amdmaxx]

Why don't you order 10,000 of 4.7s then and get rich off of it.. I'll write an article on MarketWatch once you become a success story with 26.5% gains (minus sales expenses, taxes, etc)..


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[chiral.grolim]

Why don't you order 10,000 of 4.7s then and get rich off of it.. I'll write an article on MarketWatch once you become a success story..

I know, right? Like the INFI hogs I swear, some of those guys just live off the proceeds from buying and re-selling INFI... Color me jealous!

But seriously, I do NOT advocate buying into S!K for the purpose of re-selling, though i am certain that some do just that. I just wanted to clarify terms a bit, and also present the comparison being made - investing in a knife vs company stock.

By the way, "store credit" was an option during the Starter, I kick myself for not going that route and being able to spend it on the 2nds and UBs as they became available


4.7s seem to almost all be out the door of the shop... come on S!K, start production on the 3.5 so I can get my 12!!!

 

[Silver Needle]

I think it's important to note that some of us use "investment" pretty loosely. We preordered a product with the idea of helping a company without expecting to receive interest. We can and we have gone around in circles arguing the merits of doing this. There are other social media spots filled with faith and enthusiasm for the company from people who believe SURVIVE! will come out on top and they're comfortable with that. Many people here are not comfortable with that idea. We won't get anywhere picking apart how individuals feel about spending or not spending their money.......... that isn't even the point of this thread.

The changing lead times and concerns with the companies longevity are the actual subject. It's really easy to get distracted from that.

 

[Silver Needle]

Even though I have no proof of tangible good news and even though things look pretty bleak with some of the plausible accusations against the company lately, my hope is that the good news of November is the end of extra finishing work needed. Hopefully SURVIVE! and their vendors have all the bugs worked out so that blades arrive to the S!K shop unblemished and the team can spend their time finishing, sharpening and assembling knives to ship them to customers in real batches. I think that could go along way even without a second or third blade sharpener.

The other thing on my Christmas list for this month would be for actual deliveries to line up with lead time estimates. Ellie has said before that if they give no estimates then their phone is ringing off the hook with people asking about their best guess of when to expect a product. Giving some idea on their site and in newsletters probably helps a lot with answering the same question in various emails all day long. With that said they need to make realistic estimates that they can deliver on. Doing what they say and saying what they mean would go a long way I relieving a giant and logical complaint from this thread.

 

[mlmcasual]

There is no need to argue over the definition of Investment regarding Anththknee's post for the simple reason Anttheknee clearly told us what HIS SK purchase is to HIM. He wasn't giving us the definition of an SK purchase as he was expecting it apply to everyone. He wasn't trying to impose his opinion or outlook as generalized fact, just what it meant to him.. and for that, he should be respected and needs no further parsing.

 

[gsx-rboy750]

Why don't you order 10,000 of 4.7s then and get rich off of it.. I'll write an article on MarketWatch once you become a success story with 26.5% gains (minus sales expenses, taxes, etc)..


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Amen to what you have been saying.

 

[Fancier]

Silver, as far as I can tell the knives that are currently being shipped went through the contracted cutting, grinding, and heat treat processes about a year ago.
That means that Survive has been working through their first couple of production batches ever since then, and any lessons learned are first going to be reflected in the 2.7 model.
Ellie has said a number of times that the 2.7 is a lot faster to process through their shop, and they have finished the 5.1 and seem to be on the cusp of finishing the 4.7.
So, again, as far as I can see Survive has been crawling through glass fixing the mistakes from their first production runs under the new production process and while setting up a new shop for the last entire year.
If I was Guy I'd be more frustrated and worn out than any customer could possibly be, yet he keeps on going with a remarkably good public attitude.

 

[Silver Needle]

Amen to what you have been saying.

That's not helping the discussion.

Silver, as far as I can tell the knives that are currently being shipped went through the contracted cutting, grinding, and heat treat processes about a year ago.
That means that Survive has been working through their first couple of production batches ever since then, and any lessons learned are first going to be reflected in the 2.7 model.
Ellie has said a number of times that the 2.7 is a lot faster to process through their shop, and they have finished the 5.1 and seem to be on the cusp of finishing the 4.7.
So, again, as far as I can see Survive has been crawling through glass fixing the mistakes from their first production runs under the new production process and while setting up a new shop for the last entire year. If was Guy I'd be more frustrated and worn out than any customer could possibly be, yet he keeps on going with a remarkably good public attitude.

Yes! Thank you for filling in with details. I was thinking along the same lines as you based on similar information, but you put it clearer than I did