Concerns About Survive! Business and Misleading Lead Time Estimates

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timichango said:
Do you moderator folks have any power to compel the company owners to actually step up and address some of this and/or moderate this subforum? Esav and Morrow indicated that was going to happen, but so far, no presence from the company has graced this thread, nor any other with any substantive questions about the business practices of the company...[/I][/B]
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On 8/31 this exchange took place:

grogimus-
Has Ellie been approached about us creating one and her sticky'ing it? That would be lovely! Simple rules like the other subforums use, gold membership of course, no chatting or bumping, etc.

Ellie-
I don't have that much power. I sent Spark an email a while back about making me a mod for this sub-forum but never heard back. I think he is a pretty busy dude so I will send him another message.


I wanted to make sure I provided accurate info, so I took about 15 minutes to read through Ellie's post history to find that exchange. While reading Ellie's posts, I was shocked at how much inaccurate info / how many missed dates S!K has provided over the last 2.5 months. It is really amazing how WRONG S!K has been about SO MANY things. Despite all the changes that have been promised and all the commitments to turn things around, we are still here and things seem to be getting worse. I clicked back to Ellie's posts from the end of last year, and a lot of what she said sounded eerily similar to what she is saying now.

I want S!K to turn things around and succeed. However, at this point I am not sure if I can believe anything they say.
 
I think after 6 years of being in business they should have had an accurate idea of what production load is maintainable for them. Really, you can only use so many excuses so many times before people figure out that your not making 'mistakes' and having 'setbacks', your just plain lying and buying time.
Had it been their money upfront and not other peoples to keep them afloat along the way they would have went under a long time ago due mostly to their ridiculously poor management skills.
 
Skystorm said:
I think after 6 years of being in business they should have had an accurate idea of what production load is maintainable for them. Really, you can only use so many excuses so many times before people figure out that your not making 'mistakes' and having 'setbacks', your just plain lying and buying time.
Had it been their money upfront and not other peoples to keep them afloat along the way they would have went under a long time ago due mostly to their ridiculously poor management skills.
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Yep--pretty much
 
I ordered my first Survive! knife more than a year ago (a GSO 4.1). I understood their new business model as a variation of crowd-funding and expected I would have to wait a while. In the meantime I've ordered several other S! knives -- some as gifts, some just because I don't want that 4.1 to get lonely.

The wait has been longer than expected, but that seems to be a function of high demand for the products coupled with a semi-custom manufacturing process on a scale new to the company. Some other highly reputable knife makers have wait times as long as three years for similar semi-custom knives -- and demand for some is high enough that they can charge up to twice the price of similar S! products.

I have no personal experience with 2nds sales. If such sales are made with a promised shipping date, then I can sympathize with disgruntlement if the shipping date is missed. If this is happening, repeatedly, then there certainly is a problem that needs to be addressed.

But where there is no promised shipping date, only a statement to the effect that "these knives will be finished, assembled, and shipped as time allows given other knives in production, hopefully within a couple of months," then there are no grounds for complaint.

I certainly haven't read every post in this thread. Some seem genuinely helpful, offering suggestions to improve the process for more customer satisfaction. But many accuse Guy and company of acting in bad faith, based on nothing but disappointment in longer-than-expected wait times. Personally, the only evidence of bad faith I've seen is in such posts.

As for evidence of good faith, I'm happy to see the Instagram posts of GSO 4.1s, 7/7s, and 3.5s in process. And I look forward to the day when the first of my orders shows up in the mail. When it does, I'll be sure to let y'all know if it was worth the wait!
 
A few months ago I bought an old spec 4.1 off the exchange. It was used, in good shape and after I cleaned up the edge, I decided to add a 2.7 2nd. I ordered 9/19 and was totally unaware on the growing drama concerning Survive. I was only in $110 for the 2.7 and felt I could see it through considering the growing sunami of discontent. When I ordered my understanding was that there were 2nds available and they would ship within the the 15 business days to assemble based on my scale request. It went a bit beyond my expected shipment. I made a phone call, spoke with Elle, she was very courteous and explained what was in process and that I should expect shipment in the next few weeks.
I felt assured from our conversation. I ordered a 4.1 regrind with a 6-10 month lead time after that conversation.
On 11/14 I received an email that my 2.7 2nd was ready to ship, it was packed and ready to go and shipping on the 15th.
I'm new to the Survive scene, but not to extended wait times. I've survived 5 year waits for Randall Made Knives, Busse's OP2W lead times........difference they charge a small deposit with balance prior to shipping. Survive charges total up front....but Jeeez, they are waaaaaay underpriced.
A small enterprise.....trying to make it in "America". Has anybody been F'd.....No. Inconvenienced.....Maybe. Let them breathe.
 
dragfree said:
I ordered my first Survive! knife more than a year ago (a GSO 4.1). I understood their new business model as a variation of crowd-funding and expected I would have to wait a while. In the meantime I've ordered several other S! knives -- some as gifts, some just because I don't want that 4.1 to get lonely.

The wait has been longer than expected, but that seems to be a function of high demand for the products coupled with a semi-custom manufacturing process on a scale new to the company. Some other highly reputable knife makers have wait times as long as three years for similar semi-custom knives -- and demand for some is high enough that they can charge up to twice the price of similar S! products.

I have no personal experience with 2nds sales. If such sales are made with a promised shipping date, then I can sympathize with disgruntlement if the shipping date is missed. If this is happening, repeatedly, then there certainly is a problem that needs to be addressed.

But where there is no promised shipping date, only a statement to the effect that "these knives will be finished, assembled, and shipped as time allows given other knives in production, hopefully within a couple of months," then there are no grounds for complaint.

I certainly haven't read every post in this thread. Some seem genuinely helpful, offering suggestions to improve the process for more customer satisfaction. But many accuse Guy and company of acting in bad faith, based on nothing but disappointment in longer-than-expected wait times. Personally, the only evidence of bad faith I've seen is in such posts.

As for evidence of good faith, I'm happy to see the Instagram posts of GSO 4.1s, 7/7s, and 3.5s in process. And I look forward to the day when the first of my orders shows up in the mail. When it does, I'll be sure to let y'all know if it was worth the wait!
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then there are no grounds for complaint.
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Wrong.... When there are no promised ship dates, consumer laws have a 30 day rule that kick in that require a Seller to get permission and ongoing permission for shipments taking longer then 30 days past the point of sale. Most (if not all) SK! customers don't act on that, but doesn't mean there are no grounds. Just the opposite.


Personally, the only evidence of bad faith I've seen is in such posts.
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You have no idea of what "good faith" even means, at least in the way your are using it here.
Good faith isn't a one way advertising rhetoric in what you say. Good Faith is an implied covenant seller and buyer go in have honest intentions to honor each others interest and (contract)/agreement. Once One party dosen't follow through on their stated action "We will ship out in 15 days, we expect to see X knife in several months...etc" The good faith covenant is broken. Since Survive has broken their own original statements, that only shows they are NOT acting in good faith. Customers Disgruntled over Survive's bad faith is not of itself "bad faith" That's a nonsensical statement.
 
Georgecatl said:
A few months ago I bought an old spec 4.1 off the exchange. It was used, in good shape and after I cleaned up the edge, I decided to add a 2.7 2nd. I ordered 9/19 and was t
A small enterprise.....trying to make it in "America". Has anybody been F'd.....No. Inconvenienced.....Maybe. Let them breathe.
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What does that have to do with doing good business and concerns over missed lead times and indefinite lead times?

I
 
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Seems like two unnecessary, ill-informed, shit-stirring personal attacks from a troll in need of moderation.
 
dragfree said:
Seems like two unnecessary, ill-informed, shit-stirring personal attacks from a troll in need of moderation.
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Was only pointing out you were putting out some flat out wrong items, Not a personal attack. If you can't handle someone challenging you on false things you say without name calling, cussing, personal attack accusations, and crying for censorship,..... don't know what to tell ya, get a binky and bottle?
 
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mlmcasual said:
What is your point?
What does that have to do with doing good business and concerns over missed lead times and indefinite lead times?

I work in a small business in America too. When I am late on my estimate do you think I tell my customer "hey man, I didn't F you, now let me breath.. I am I a small American Business man GDI!" LOL.. NO, i pretty much kiss their ass and apologize and work to make it right is what I do. And I have been in business far longer then Guy.
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Well MLM Casual......I guess I have a different perspective. I haven't dealt with Survive over a long period of time as others have. I've read thru multiple threads since my interest was peaked based on the QUALITY of their product. I've seen the unsubstantiated claims from a "crazy person" who's been banned. I don't doubt the frustrations of those that preordered with expected fulfillment dates. But...........this ain't General Motors rolling out the 2017 "whatever", this is Guy and Elle trying to figure out how to make this business of theirs work. For you......it doesn't sound like it's working. Fine....get your refund and move on. Me.....I'm a newb to Survive. I ordered a knife....they went beyond my expected delivery date....I called......Elle explained and assured a plan of action........and DAMN......YES....they came through.
 
I will say that seeing the loyal fans on here made me proud to be a supporter of the brand. I bought a 7/7 and the upcoming GSO Limited in part because I want to support and see this company succeed.
 
Got an email from Survive and from PayPal at about 5:45 pm today that my refund is on the way.

Thanks. :thumbup:
 
Georgecatl said:
A few months ago I bought an old spec 4.1 off the exchange. It was used, in good shape and after I cleaned up the edge, I decided to add a 2.7 2nd. I ordered 9/19 and was totally unaware on the growing drama concerning Survive. I was only in $110 for the 2.7 and felt I could see it through considering the growing sunami of discontent. When I ordered my understanding was that there were 2nds available and they would ship within the the 15 business days to assemble based on my scale request. It went a bit beyond my expected shipment. I made a phone call, spoke with Elle, she was very courteous and explained what was in process and that I should expect shipment in the next few weeks.
I felt assured from our conversation. I ordered a 4.1 regrind with a 6-10 month lead time after that conversation.
On 11/14 I received an email that my 2.7 2nd was ready to ship, it was packed and ready to go and shipping on the 15th.
I'm new to the Survive scene, but not to extended wait times. I've survived 5 year waits for Randall Made Knives, Busse's OP2W lead times........difference they charge a small deposit with balance prior to shipping. Survive charges total up front....but Jeeez, they are waaaaaay underpriced.
A small enterprise.....trying to make it in "America". Has anybody been F'd.....No. Inconvenienced.....Maybe. Let them breathe.
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I'll admit I'm only following this affair because of the religiosity of some of the people here having said that. The issue seems to me not the wait times so much as the wait times have slipped right when they weren't supposed to and were not told in advance that they were. I'm almost 5 years into a wait for a Richard Sachs bike frame and late this summer he sent me a message saying that it'd likely be late by six months. I'm good with that because 1. I knew the wait was five years going in and 2. He didn't wait until he was past delivery time to tell me he's going to be late.

This could all be fixed by not posting optimistic delivery times and sending email out when problems begin not when you're in the middle of them. Telling folks that due to demand that the new design will take a year or 18 months to realize will cause more excitement than it'll be shipping in 60 days.
 
6 more days and my 2.7 should be shipping! It's going to be a LONG week and even longer weekend. Then my perspective should change I guess. I won't have any skin in the game other than wanting S!K to survive. No pun intended.

Maybe someday I'll actually see the GSO 12 on the shelf and "in stock, ready to ship", or even one on the secondary market. I've been looking for a replacement for my ESEE Junglas for chopping and batonning. Haven't found one yet that even comes close in performance that is somewhat in the price range

Seems things have quieted down a bit on all these threads.

Is Survive!Knives actually gaining some ground in November like they promised?
 
Hale Storm said:
Seems things have quieted down a bit on all these threads.

Is Survive!Knives actually gaining some ground in November like they promised?
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It appears a bunch of 2.7s and 4.7s shipped. I got a shipping notice for my preorder 4.7 from June 2015. It should be in my hands tomorrow. Also, several members are reporting that they've received the refunds that they put in for. I think that's why you're seeing the threads quiet down.
 
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