Copyright?

I bet if you look there is evidence of prior art on the Busee hole.
Like this, I don't see any specifics on the hole size, just location


The M9bayonet with the hole in it for the wire cutter
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BL046_blade_00001.jpg

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I don't doubt he tries to protect it with threats of legal action, but may lose in court

Why else wouldn't he be suing for:

The emerson Le Griffe and others
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Solingen
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How old is the Busse trademark?

I have a knife I pulled out of my skull in 1986 or 1987 that has a small hole the guard.

No Joke, my one, and hopefully only knife fight.

I'm betting that's prior art, or whatever it's referred to at the trademark office.

I'll consider renting it out for litigation purposes...
 
You haven't really explained or justified anything here... just given another example of a company/organization trademarking what essentially amounts to little more than a common shape.

Are square boxing and wrestling rings trademarked?

Yeah, you can trademark a square. It isn't a patent or a copyright, it is a trademark If Square Boys Pizza used a square somewhere in their trademark, it would be trademarked. That would not randomly allow them to stop other people from selling pizza in square boxes, but at one time there was a round pizza box some company had, and they might have TMd that.

Interesting thing about the Tallon Hole citation is they are claming it is a hole in the rear portion of the blade. But their hole actually appears to be in the guard. Anyway, so long as their TM is distinctive in design, it should stand up. It is like the olympic rings, you can use rings, you can probably overlap them to some extent, but if people think it looks like the olympic rings, you are probably going to get called on it.
 
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I don't think this analogy makes sense. Talon hole ≠ logo.

Did Loveless hate loveless style knives? I guess he should have trademarked the hollow ground with tapered tang feature.

As I recall, Loveless was one of the old schoolers who actually encouraged repetition of his patterns by other makers. He was all about the craft being proliferated and didn't care as much about any copyrights......so that might be a bad example ;)
 
If the mark is a physical feature, it generally cannot be something that is already known (in use) in the art.

Let's say someone got a really broad TM or Patent claiming little bumps on the spine of a blade.
Let's say this someone then tries to force you to stop filing grooves in the spine of your blades.:grumpy:

You'd file with the USPTO for reexamination along with a "brief" detailing, with evidence, how this alleged "mark" (in the case of a TM) or "invention" in the case of a patent has been known in prior art. :cool:

If it can be shown in use in the prior art, the trademark or patent will either require an overhaul, limiting its scope, or it will die entirely.

TMs are a lot squishier than utility patents which, these days, are generally examined pretty rigorously before they issue. This means a TM is generally (a lot) easier to get, but they may be susceptible to attack later on if it's too broad. For this reason, a really broad TM might not worth much because, assuming you can sneak it past the examiner, it will magically wilt if you ever try to enforce it ... So in the end, you'd be stuck with the substantial costs of filing and issuing a useless TM or patent, stuck with the costs of defending it upon reexamination, you'd probably loose your TM or patent and COULD face legal problems since it is a crime to knowingly withhold knowledge of prior art relevant to your invention (duty to disclose). (It would have to be pretty egregious to actually get in legal trouble, however.)
 
A good example of the filed bumps would be the spiderco serrated edge treatment. Making serrations is pretty common, but they had their own pattern, so it did not mater whether it was prior art at some level of generality. That said, the quoted TM for the Talon is very broad. Basically people know with TM whether there is a violation when weaker builders can't seem to come up with a personal style without leaning heavily on existing stuff.

Patents are a whole other thing, one needs to have some specific novel feature, etc... You are probably right that patents are checked out reasonably well before issue, in comparison. I do not think they are particularly careful though. 1) there is a realization that IP is a national treasure, economically, and so they tend to issue patents rather than not, let the courts sort them out, rather than let some other country get a head start. 2) I think they see the courts as a better location for sorting out the details; 3) there is a land rush on patents, and they don't have the manpower to cover the huge number of patents being issued. 4) Many people don't seem to have much idea what came before, and are ignorant of stuff from years ago. It isn't much of a historical time, or place.
 
Apologies for the joke. I agree that this topic is important.

I have a friend in Korea who makes some knives. He's a one-man operation with a fairly low output, and he still got a very aggressive letter from Busse about what holes he could and couldn't use. His English is not perfect, and he was kind of freaked out by the whole thing.
 
I bet if you look there is evidence of prior art on the Busee hole.

I know I've seen holes in bladed/gaurds other than the Busses. In fact, I never really paid attention to the "busse holes" when I first saw them, as in my opinion, it wasn't anything that I hadn't seen before, or thought was all that unique. When I read about a new maker getting called out about drilling a hole in their knife, I almost couldn't believe it.

Though I think the knife may have come out after Busse Knives was founded, what about the Gerber LMF? It has holes in it.


I would also venture to guess that somebody could probably find a pocket knife with a deployment hole pre-spyderco, though admittedly that might be a little bit harder.
 
That is pretty scary, to think that you put a non-chalant hole in a knife and can get such confrontation or worse.
 
Pretty sad too if you ask me.

"There's a small time, unknown maker in a town that nobody has ever heard of making knives, and one of the 27 holes he is drilling on one of his knife models is relatively similar in size, roundness, and location to one of ours. We better shut this guy down before he contributes to the catastrophic and irrepairable failure of our internationally recognized and respected company."
 
Yes, but you have to actively defend your trademark and patent, or else risk severe damage to your ability to defend it. It sucks that a little maker gets a nasty letter or a cease and desist, but in line on the other side of that little maker can be a big factory willing to pump out exact replicas of your superior product. If you play nice guy to all the little guys before him, you have actively diluted your brand and may lose some of your muscle when you have to defend your trademark or patent in court.
 
Patents are a whole other thing, one needs to have some specific novel feature, etc... You are probably right that patents are checked out reasonably well before issue, in comparison. I do not think they are particularly careful though. 1) there is a realization that IP is a national treasure, economically, and so they tend to issue patents rather than not, let the courts sort them out, rather than let some other country get a head start. 2) I think they see the courts as a better location for sorting out the details; 3) there is a land rush on patents, and they don't have the manpower to cover the huge number of patents being issued. 4) Many people don't seem to have much idea what came before, and are ignorant of stuff from years ago. It isn't much of a historical time, or place.

I would have to disagree with the idea they issue more than not. I don't recall the exact numbers, but I'm CERTAIN they dispose of many many more applications than they allow. Even on appeal, most of the time rejections are upheld and the patent application dies.
I've successfully prosecuted a TM, a utility patent and have several others pending now. Unless you're very lucky, it's about a 6 year ordeal on utility patents. You won't even get your first rejection for the first 2 years or so after filing.
Let me tell you what I've learned about the USPTO.
There are different types of examiners and a variety of philosophies with respect to IP over there. A few (old school) examiners are conscientious , maybe a little idealistic, and are interested in identifying legitimate patentable material to issue in each application.
This is not the norm anymore.
Many examiners openly view IP as an assault on the public domain and see their job as protecting the public from the inventor by denying as much as they can make an argument for rejecting without regard to actual novelty or non-obviousness. It's an adversarial process that has more to do with making rejection arguments that might or might not be tenable and less about actually identifying patentable material. The type that fall into that camp see it as a victory every time they beat someone out of their application because whatever legit IP was in the application then becomes public--they've "won" for the public.

Things were a lot easier before 2007 when KSR v. Teleflex was decided by SCOTUS. That decision turned the subject of 'obviousness' on its ear and resulted in a patent bloodbath---patents falling like flies when reexamined under the new rules for obviousness. The big winners there were companies like Microsoft that immediately had hundreds of competitor's patents reexamined and thrown out---Free IP, from their perspective.

Yes, the examiners are overworked. That's why it's about 2 years before you receive your first rejection. Examiners are incentivised to dispose of as many applications as possible by a productivity point system that heavily favors rejections over allowance.

Just after KSR, the joke at the patent office was that it was now the "rejection office", and that was certainly the truth.

Naturally, I'm talking about utility patents not design patents. Those are much easier to get--like a TM, but offer virtually no real protection most of the time, being focused on form rather than a definable device. Change that form slightly and the design patent becomes irrelevant. They're useful for showing when you were using a particular design, I guess, but not worth it usually.
 
Pretty sad too if you ask me.

"There's a small time, unknown maker in a town that nobody has ever heard of making knives, and one of the 27 holes he is drilling on one of his knife models is relatively similar in size, roundness, and location to one of ours. We better shut this guy down before he contributes to the catastrophic and irrepairable failure of our internationally recognized and respected company."
I understand if someone is intentionally copying a companys knife and trying to sell it making money off their design.Though in the case of some dude that makes a few knives a month who makes a knife similar to one of yours then who cares..
 
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I see your point aarongb, but I guess my biggest gripe is just the concept itself. I'm not trying to beat a dead horse here, and believe me, I do understand trademarks (when they are unique) but in the case of busse, in particular, it really is just a hole. It's not "original", and it's barely even functional. In fact, if you had asked me how I recognized a Busse, I wouldn't have even thought about holes in the "gaurd" area.
Flared lanyard tubes? Sure. (thank God they didn't try to trade mark that one) Overall look and design? I think they are unique. Hole in the gaurd? Wait... there's a hole in the gaurd? Come to think of it, I'm not sure that it's even a feature on all of their knives, at least not the scrap yard and swamp rat series knives that I recall. Maybe I'm wrong.

Now at least with Spyderco, they can actually say they are recognized by the "spydie hole" and incorporate it on nearly every one of their knives (even fixed blades to an extent, though its a smaller and non-functional hole). I just think there should be an additional criteria or two for filing a trademark, I.E. "trademark is for knives with deployment hole of 12mm diameter, accompanied with spider logo and/or Spyderco company name."

Granted, I guess that would make including the depoyment hole in the TM all but irrelevant...

Oh well... I think I've rambled on enough about this. hahah
 
Does anyone know If Busse has ever defended the trademark in a court of law?
 
Doubtful.

I have 2 knives, in my possession, that I have had since the 80's that have holes that would seem to violate the TM, yet certainly predate the TM.

I'll wager many of you do too.

If I am not mistaken, even a hack lawyer would be able to use that to explain this is a common feature.
 
Alright ...this comes up a lot, here's my story.
I made a kickass fighting knife with a hole in the guard. Had no idea it was trademarked by Busse. A couple days after posting photos of my awesome knife I get a phone call from Mr. Busse. He was completely professional and down to earth, even told me he loved my knife and thought it was a good design. Out of respect I told him I would remove the pics from the interwebs. Yes he has taken people to court and won. Does he do it to everyone? No. He understands that everyone doesn't know it's a trademark, which he has a legal obligation to inform people of should they put a hole in the guard. So for me personally I didn't have a horrible experience with the man. Matter of fact he was very encouraging and had some cool stories.
 
Doubtful.

I have 2 knives, in my possession, that I have had since the 80's that have holes that would seem to violate the TM, yet certainly predate the TM.

I'll wager many of you do too.

If I am not mistaken, even a hack lawyer would be able to use that to explain this is a common feature.

I think you're right. At first glance, I'm guessing it wouldn't withstand too much scrutiny because it's sooo broad, and like you said, there are very old knives with holes roughly in the described position.
If someone wanted to throw a few grand at it, they could have it re-examined and see if it holds up in light of whatever prior art is apparent.
IF the TM survives that, it would be pretty much bullet proof. Sometimes companies actually have their own stuff reexamined just for that extra security.

To me, however, the existence of a TM isn't the primary consideration.
In general, I'm going to try and avoid features other people are invested in as part of their identity, TM or no.
 
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