Country of origin

[bld522]

Can't deny that. And there are countries and people out there who hate America too.

Can't deny that either. Sure doesn't say much for the way we treat each other, does it?

So now maybe you can understand why I'm in it strictly for the knives when I'm here. I consider my knife hobby a little refuge in the midst of the madness I call the human condition. And I, for one, refuse to let that madness work its way into every aspect of my life . . . particularly those aspects that give me pleasure. YMMV.

 

[Hackenslash]

Was this thread, once upon a time, about knife-like things?

 

[Jhansenak47]

I like quality, so if the quality is there, I'll buy it.

I have knives from different countries and don't block a knife BECAUSE of its country, that'd be RACIST.

Wow, you guys really don't like the racist comment. My two cents, is refusing to buy North Korean but buying South Korean racist? Not so cut and dry to fall neatly into being racially motivated.

 

[bld522]

I defy anyone to put a South Korean and North Korean in a room, remove their clothing, walk in and tell me which is which. It may be politically-motivated. It may even be culturally-motivated. But it's definitely not racially-motivated.

 

[bld522]

Was this thread, once upon a time, about knife-like things?

Yep. Still is if you're willing to pay attention.

 

[RedLynx]

Economics major here as well. I thought China was a mess until I took a look myself and realized how ****in' deluded we are here in the states.
Take a trip and you'll realize how our deteriorating infrastructure, education system, social attitudes are actually quite a joke overseas.

Regardless about politics, I buy American first and foremost, but if the quality is good or I like the knife I buy from wherever.

I've been overseas a few times myself, but it doesn't really matter in the scope of this discussion...

Just a heads up: Appeals to authority don't have much merit round these parts. Rightly so, generally speaking.

 

[bld522]

So anyone else want to talk about their offshore knives and why they bought them? Or have we pretty much exhausted the topic?

 

[RedLynx]

So anyone else want to talk about their offshore knives and why they bought them?

I bought one of the newer Schrade folders because one member here I generally trust said it was pleasantly hefty, surprising and kept coming back for more. So far he was right, although it's a darn heavy folder for pocket carry.

I have a lot of Chinese Kershaws because they're still Kershaws and economical to boot. I can't say those things are right or wrong, maybe they are wrong, I don't know, yet.

I ordered some pants online that I have to return because they are made in Bangladesh and I have friends there, some that were involved in that factory collapse a couple years ago... so I try not to buy Bangladeshi. Fairly subjective, but there it is. I try to have some scruples.

 

[GrReaper]

I bought a CRKT Hisshou and an M4-02 folder a while back, both made-in-China. They're okay, but I wouldn't get them if I had to do it over again. The Hisshou has a poorly executed grind in its curved blade. If you check out the stock photo on the internet, there's a section of the blade, a couple inches from the tip, that looks a little off. Well, that's exactly what mine looks like. So apparently that's a defect in all of those Hisshou knives. The M4-02 I don't have any complaints, but for the price, my Ontario RAT 1, made in Taiwan, cost only about $20 and it's a much better knife than the M4-02.
'

 

[J85909266]

Country of origin doesn't matter to me. At all.

 

[GrReaper]

Hi. Yes, country of origin is a topic popping up often here . Interesting reading. Since the conversation mostly revolved around China and Chinese knives, I think I can add a few lines on this, hoping not going too much OT .

I have been working and living in mainland China for 3 years, ending my assignment rather recently. Working with QA, I have spent most of that time on Chinese factories floors, dealing with suppliers producing consumers goods, some producing table cutlery. This, I think, is rather comparable to sporting knives production, at least when it comes to main industrial processes.

I was not short of quality issues with them ! Problem was our made in China stainless steels table cutlery oxidized and eventually rusted like - and sometimes even more than - EU made carbon steels. We run a project to fix the many claims and we identified the problems root-cause connected to three things: the raw materials, the grinding and polishing processes and the finishing process.

First thing we started to analyze and compare the steels. When managed to perform ourselves a cast analysis in a own lab, it turned out they were not exactly the same in composition, compared to EU standards (even though the standards conversion table claimed they were), and their performances were not at all to the same level. This was valid for several others raw materials I worked with, plastic for example. A Chinese made PA6 was not always having the same properties as a EU made one, even if same plastic producer run the two plants . The plastic producer themselves couldn’t explain exactly why. Being not possible, for cost reasons, to import steels or change to a proprietary (with a modified composition) domestic steel, we had to work with incoming batch testing for key parameters (and restricted substances) and sort quite much. A pain in the a$$.

The second issue we discovered it was about the compounds used in the grinding and polishing processes. The factories were building the grinding and polishing wheels in-house (on the bare floors sometimes ), they didn’t buy any "industrial standard grade" ones. The problem was that, in the making of polishing wheels in-house process, compounds containing sulfur, calcium oxide, iron oxide, quartz, rosin, etc. were used. Clearly, this stuff used in the grinding and polishing developed oxidation and eventually rust in the steel microgrooves. Also there was a real problem in measuring properly the agreed surface roughness which, for example, for a satin finish (in the table cutlery) we agreed on values Ra max 0.8 μm and Rz max. 8 μm and for a mirror finish Ra max 0.25 μm and Rz max 2.5 μm. There were simply no appropriate tools to measure! Or, sometimes just shortage of experienced operators to use tools. Was impossible to have a verification of agreed values.

Third issue was the quite poor finishing. This was mainly a cultural/behavioral/mind-set issue. This is not only China, to be fair . But China has it in big scale. All of us who have experienced factory floors mass production of consumers goods, can recognize that, when dealing with hundred thousands of pieces running through our hands every day, we lose a bit the idea that one piece is one Customer. We just see tons of the very same stuff . The lines need to run, they tell us and this is when speed and quantities come before quality.

First two problems were about “things”, it was relatively easy to tackle and solve them (hardest DMAIC phase was the C ). The third one was about People, much more difficult to get through, as usual… and this would bring me to politics/economics which I’d rather not talk about. Anyway, most of the things said here about China are very true. Overall, I think that People get the Government they deserve. The good and the bad attitude/behaviors we point out in a Government it’s many times just the big scale reflection of the individuals very same good and bad attitude/behaviors. This said, I actually don’t own any Chinese sporting knife or made in China knife yet.

Very interesting, we finally have someone with personal experience. It pretty much confirms what most people here seem to think. People's Republic of China has severe quality issues, both in materials used and in production methods. It comes down to trust. If most of what comes out of China is crap (just check the news for the latest made-in-China horror story), why would people trust their knives enough to pay premium money when there are better alternatives out there? It's no different than made in Pakistan, with its mystery steel. A lot of people choose to avoid made-in-China because of lack of trust.

 

[GrReaper]

Quite an interesting post Herlock. For me mostly because of the stuff about raw materials. I'd heard that before, that the standardization of raw materials for manufacture wasn't what it should be.

A place where I used to work quit outsourcing parts from China partially due to materials. A sheet of stainless stock for the laser had a half melted bolt in it.

I interviewed for a machinist job once and the conversation turned to countries the man bought parts from and their cultures. He said Chinese vendors were funny. The would offer very inexpensive parts which would turn out to be incorrect. When called on it they would say "But they were cheap!". He could get correct parts for a bit more.

So China can make quality stuff and it's very good at mass production of "pretty good" stuff. They own inexpensive consumer goods like the garment industry.

As usual in these threads, everyone is right. You can get a decent knife from China. They are an evil empire, but so are we. They treat their workers poorly, but rank and file workers in the USA aren't exactly treated like gold. This USA blue collar worker isn't going to make much of a difference boycotting their knives, especially when he is almost forced to buy Chinese stuff of every other sort.

So the business of business can be evil and maybe China is a symptom and not a disease.

I will say this. I don't think China is unrestrained capitalism so much as unrestrained capitalism combined with communism. The government moves into rural areas and builds planned manufacturing towns which employ the displaced p̶e̶a̶s̶a̶n̶t̶s̶ rural folk.

How can a purely capitalist society compete with that?

"A sheet of stainless stock...had a half melted bolt in it". I almost fell out of my chair laughing. There you go!

 

[GrReaper]

I don't just mean to pick on China. Made-in-Pakistan too has a very crappy reputation, which is well deserved. I don't trust their knives either. And it isn't just about the price point either. I mean, look at Condor knives. They're pretty cheap, but their steel has a very good reputation. Some made-in-Taiwan knives are cheap but still of excellent quality. BTW I checked out Reate and Kizer knives, which some here are recommending. I'm not really into folders anyway but those prices will knock your socks off. Made-in-China and asking $350. Wow! Ontario RAT 1 is made-in-Taiwan, available for about $20, and is probably just as good a folder.

 

[dkblade]

I tend to prefer things made in America, though many American companies outsource now, and a lot of times QC suffers. It doesn't really have anything to do with national pride for me, it's just an issue of quality control. There's nothing to me that's enticing about Made in China. This may come off as polarizing, but I think the Chinese tend rip off everything they can and have no regard for copyright law, and that takes away from the integrity of good businesses and products made in other countries. Made in Taiwan, however, is totally fine with me. I sell some products made in Taiwan that, for the money, blow the competitors away. The same seems to go for Taichung made knives...my Sage 1 has a more centered blade than my Sebenza--but the Sebenza is true, old fashioned American made quality that just isn't as common now as it used to be. That quality control and attention to detail that borders on insanity I think is one of the things that make the knife so damn popular...I guess that's my point.

 

[brancron]

Very interesting, we finally have someone with personal experience. It pretty much confirms what most people here seem to think. People's Republic of China has severe quality issues, both in materials used and in production methods. It comes down to trust.

As luck would have it, the People's Republic of China is not the one making knives (just as the United States of America isn't making knives either). Specific companies in China are making knives, companies that are building their reputations as some of the best in the business in terms of design, quality of materials, and fit and finish. Custom makers have taken note and are enthusiastically collaborating with such companies to offer versions of their knives at a much lower cost.

To project one's generalized notions about "China-made = low quality" on these companies is an act of pure ignorance, but people continue to do so, often hostility and with a healthy dose of jingoism thrown in. Such people are an ugly blemish on the knife community.

 

[GrReaper]

I tend to prefer things made in America, though many American companies outsource now, and a lot of times QC suffers. It doesn't really have anything to do with national pride for me, it's just an issue of quality control. There's nothing to me that's enticing about Made in China. This may come off as polarizing, but I think the Chinese tend rip off everything they can and have no regard for copyright law, and that takes away from the integrity of good businesses and products made in other countries. Made in Taiwan, however, is totally fine with me. I sell some products made in Taiwan that, for the money, blow the competitors away. The same seems to go for Taichung made knives...my Sage 1 has a more centered blade than my Sebenza--but the Sebenza is true, old fashioned American made quality that just isn't as common now as it used to be. That quality control and attention to detail that borders on insanity I think is one of the things that make the knife so damn popular...I guess that's my point.

+1 yeah, I agree that the P.R.China tends to rip off everything. IMO the worst part about their quality control is that sometimes they INTENTIONALLY put hazardous materials into products, in order to save on costs or whatever their reasons may be. Like when they put melamine, a chemical used to make furniture, into milk products. Or when they put asbestos in crayons, or formaldehyde in flooring. Mistakes can be forgiven, intentionally putting dangerous substances to cut corners is unforgiveable.

 

[stabman]

IMO the worst part about their quality control is that sometimes they INTENTIONALLY put hazardous materials into products

I know...on my Boker Plus War Toad, they intentionally put an edge on it!
Someone could cut themself on it.

 

[GrReaper]

As luck would have it, the People's Republic of China is not the one making knives (just as the United States of America isn't making knives either). Specific companies in China are making knives, companies that are building their reputations as some of the best in the business in terms of design, quality of materials, and fit and finish. Custom makers have taken note and are enthusiastically collaborating with such companies to offer versions of their knives at a much lower cost.

To project one's generalized notions about "China-made = low quality" on these companies is an act of pure ignorance, but people continue to do so, often hostility and with a healthy dose of jingoism thrown in. Such people are an ugly blemish on the knife community.

Dude, People's Republic of China is a "communist" country. Their factories are government owned. Production is government controlled there. You don't breathe there without permission from their government. Come on, man, you can do better than that!

 

[dkblade]

This could quickly go all political haywire, but ill just end it right now: communism sucks. Period.

 

[RedLynx]

I know...on my Boker Plus War Toad, they intentionally put an edge on it!
Someone could cut themself on it.

I think this thread needed that. :thumbup:

It will also be causing me to look up this War Toad now... which may put me at philosophical odds with the thread I just created. Darn you.