Courthouse Security Too Tight

Joined
Mar 23, 2000
Messages
3,769
My CWP needed renewing, so I went to the sheriff's office located in the large county courthouse in my area (just outside of Seattle). Knowing they would frown on the knife I usually carry (SOG Night Vision), I left it behind and only had my CrossCut on my keychain (a little scissor tool with a 2" blade). I was told by security that they have a zero tollerance knife policy and I had to check it into a locker before entering the courthouse.

I was stunned and could only shake my head! Airport security allows knives of greater stature...

------------------
Ron Andersen
Consumer Services Manager
SOG Specialty Knives, Inc.

Website: www.sogknives.com
Email: ron@sogknives.com
 
Well I understand the fact that they are tighter than airport security because they deal with the criminal element everyday. Someone could be trying to get out of a court date, enhance an insanity plea, or just good olde fashion off there lawyer
biggrin.gif
. However, the Crosscut thing is very extreme. Imean they aren't even threating looking scissors.

------------------
Mykl
Anxiously awaiting my BM 42A
 
A couple months ago I went to a pretrial of a friends divorce and had my deadly leatherman micra siezed/held until I left, I thought it a really poor decision on their part... I walked in with my Visor PDA and several steel pens without even a concern. I was a bit ticked off by that and when I was in the "secure area" could not help to notice all the improvised weopons that were/are available from table and chair legs to glass that could be broken, rubber bands to propell a sharp pen or pencil etc... sometimes I think thay have no clue...

God Bless-paul
 
Zero tolerance is zero tolerance. I don't like it any more than the next guy but its the law. Same thing applies with schools too. There have been instances in which kids have been caught in the middle, such as a case I heard of in which a girl was taken into custody because her nail clipper had a small knife blade in it
rolleyes.gif
Times have changed in the public school environment, back in my public school days the worse one could do is to bring a pocketknife to school. Now, we got kids packin' firearms along with their textbooks. Zero tolerance protects all the kids; school should be a place that fosters a worry-free learning environment.

Zero tolerance in schools - where it is illegal to briing in a small innocent pocketknife like a Victorinox Classic, but if you go to shop class, they turn you loose with drills, radial arm saws, table saws, hand saws, etc
rolleyes.gif


Dismounting the soapbox....

------------------
Proud member of AKTI, NCCKG, NCKK, and SCAK

In memory of James K. Mattis
 
I was down at the courthouse a few months back and left my knives in the car. Then while wandering the halls I see an elderly Sikh gentleman carrying a large Kirpan in a shoulder rig of sorts w/metal sheath.

Personally, I'd like to start up a a new religion that requires the carry of a 7" tanto in a like manner...
smile.gif
 
My wife is a public school teacher at the junior high level and they have a zero tollerance knife policy, or better stated, a "Weapons Free Zone" (even for the teachers)...BUT there, sitting on every teacher's desk is a lethal pair of scissors. She won't carry her CrossCut to school. Those desks can hurt, too, if thrown...Where is common sense? Almost anything can be turned into a weapon.

I would prefer the legal definition of a weapon to be the measure. A knife is only a tool until it is deemed illegal by length or style (or whatever the local statute outlines).

Dexter...here in the Seattle School District, about five years ago, a student was expelled for the rest of the school year for bringing a 1" long, plastic, G.I. Joe toy pistol to school...an application of their zero tollerance.

I'm not advocating opening the door to weapons, but a small tool or small pocket knife is not a weapon. Girls carry more lethal nail files than a small gent-type knife. I carried a pocket knife to school everyday in high school 20 years ago. It was a non issue.

I'm still bewildered....

------------------
Ron Andersen
Consumer Services Manager
SOG Specialty Knives, Inc.

Website: www.sogknives.com
Email: ron@sogknives.com


[This message has been edited by Ron@SOG (edited 01-11-2001).]
 
Zero tolerance measures at schools and other locals while ment to protect lives also carry a large measure of administrative "easy street." That is no fucntionary has to exerecise judgement. No one will be called upon to justify a decision in the event of adverse outcome. Much easier and secure from an administrator's viewpoint. Some have gone as far as proposing banning any objects that might be used as a weapon - how to enforce such is a mystery.
 
My sister is a substitute teacher in Ohio and carries a Leatherman that I gave her around with her. She was at a school one day some years back and someone needed a pair of neeedle-nose pliers, so Nan whipped out her Leatherman and handed it to the person. The principal pick the tool up afterwards and looked at the various components in it and told Nan that she could be arrested for bringing such a dangerous weapon to the school, and held up the knife blade. Nan, who, like most of us, also carries a pocket knife, promptly went hoke and put the tool in a vise and broke the knife blade off. Now it's legal. Stupid, but legal.

------------------
Walk in the Light,
Hugh Fuller
 
Whenever somebody says "zero tolerance", I hear, "I'm an idiot." Some kind of short circuite in my brain I guess.
 
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Dexter...here in the Seattle School District, about five years ago, a student was expelled for the rest of the school year for bringing a 1" long, plastic, G.I. Joe toy pistol to school...an application of their zero tollerance.</font>

Ron - this here is one reason why I am against zero tolerance. My goodness, this is just a toy for crying out loud! Depends on how young the student was at the time, he may or may not know what it right and what is wrong in a situation like that, to him it's just another plaything. But then again, it all falls back on the parents, with teaching their kids between right and wrong. This is a prime example of how the innocent get caught in the middle of this zero tolerance crap.

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">I'm not advocating opening the door to weapons, but a small tool or small pocket knife is not a weapon</font>

Unfortunately school officials view any sort of knife regardless of blade length as a "weapon". Sad but true. Say, how about this - what about the maintenance employees who work for the school systems who might have a Stanley utility knife in their toolbelts to cut linoleum, or a small plain edge folder like a Gerber LST, Bucklite, etc for stripping electrical wire? I mean, these folks work in and around the school building. How does that law apply to them, then? These are not "weapons"
rolleyes.gif
they are what they are - tools.

I know that Art (artsig1) is a school teacher and fellow knife nut...maybe he can shed some light on this?

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">I carried a pocket knife to school everyday in high school 20 years ago. It was a non issue.</font>

Man, those were the days, huh?
smile.gif
Back then, no school boy would be caught dead without a pocketknife!

Another thing about this zero tolerance crap. Some folks like me carry a knife or multi-tool in the car, safely tucked away in a crevice or the glove box. Some folks with a CWP may also carry a firearm in the vehicle. When they go to drop off or pick up their kids with a knife or gun in the vehicle, does this zero tolerance crap apply to them as well if they get caught for some reason?



------------------
Proud member of AKTI, NCCKG, NCKK, and SCAK

In memory of James K. Mattis
 
I agree; these "zero tolerance" policies do nothing to solve violence in what are supposed to be safe areas (shouldn't all places be safe?). They are nothing but politically expedient drivel to satify the lowest common denominator. It's depressing to see education administrators eat that crap up.

gm
 
Hi Dexter,

I'm going on vague memories of what I read of an interpretation of Washington State law regarding guns on school campuses, but I think if you have a CWP and are ONLY dropping off or picking up your child and happen to be very temporarily on school grounds, that is acceptable (maybe heavily frowned upon and possibly many questions may need to be answered if caught). But, if one is visiting the school (teacher conference, parent night, basketball game, etc.), that cannot be done. I have read on this specific topic, but I should defer here, to someone with more knowledge.

The G.I. Joe gun student, I think, was around late elementary or junior high age.

Regarding custodians, I would think that MIGHT be acceptable, depending on the school administration. But if it is a tool for the custodian, how does the definition turn into a weapon when in the hands of a student?

My wife has seen her scary events at school. She had a student on Halloween with a butcher knife, someone with loaded gun in her classroom (while another teacher was in charge), among other things. I do want her safe.

I tell her that we should arm all teachers.
smile.gif
That will stop school violence! She doesn't support my enthusiasm.

------------------
Ron Andersen
Consumer Services Manager
SOG Specialty Knives, Inc.

Website: www.sogknives.com
Email: ron@sogknives.com
 
Let's not forget that a knife is one of our oldest tools, and its use, or should we say abuse, is what makes the knife a weapon. Certainly some knives have designs which are meant for but a few misguided purposes. But the small pocket tools such as SAK, Leatherman, SOG and even small pocket knives are not inherently bad. But instead of enacting sensible laws we ban everything we can the minute are security is threatened. It's a shame it has come to this.
 
Before this thread drifts totally off topic (if you really need to rant one more time about the idiocy of schools, why not start a separate thread for it?) ...

It feels very strange for me of all people to be saying it, but banning knives from courthouses actually makes sense. People have passed knives to prisoners who have used them to escape and to commit murders. It's not the same as banning knives at school or in general because it doesn't disarm the victims and leave the aggressors armed, as banning weapons usually does. Everybody goes through the metal detector and the only people armed in the courthouse are the officers of the court (in Massachusetts at least, ordinary police officers who haven't had special training in weapon retention have to check their guns at the courthouse door -- with good reason, prisoners have snatched a cop's gun right out of his holster).

Massachusetts courts don't allow any knives at all in the courthouse, because trying to distinguish knives that are or aren't weapons is an idiot's game; people have been killed with a half-inch (13mm) penknife, and trying to distinguish people who might be intending to pass a knife to a prisoner would be even harder.

It's not the same situation as a school or an airport, and the result of the ban isn't the same, either; it doesn't leave the aggressors armed and there are officers of the court present to protect you from unarmed attack.

Besides the very real danger from prisoners, in the course of a trial, civil or criminal, people often get pretty upset and sometimes violent. There is a long tradition in our culture of leaving our weapons at the courthouse door -- medieval knights left their swords at the courthouse door, cowboys left their revolvers ... we can do it too, IMHO. Weird as it feels to be stark naked in public, there are reasons for it in that special situation.

------------------
-Cougar Allen :{)
--------------------------------------
This post is not merely the author's opinions; it is the trrrrrruth. This post is intended to cause dissension and unrest and upset people, and ultimately drive them mad. Please do not misinterpret my intentions in posting this.

[This message has been edited by Cougar Allen (edited 01-11-2001).]
 
Zero tolerance=Zero common sense

------------------
Although it does not mindfully keep guard in the small mountain fields, the scarecrow does not stand in vain
Bukkoku
 
Hi Cougar,

This courthouse is about a ten story tall building housing not only a few courtrooms, but many governmental offices. From my understanding, prisoners are kept in secured jail areas until court appointments, then ushered by police in through a side door and sat in the front. There is no interaction with them and those throughout the "free" portions of the building (unless they get loose). The tools we are referring to here are as lethal as a shoelace. Maybe I should have left my sneakers in the locker as well.
smile.gif


Guesstimating that the building has 300 employees, I bet you there are 300 pair of highly lethal scissors in each of their desks. Should those scissors be banned because they may be passed to a prisoner?

Having all knives, regardless of size, restricted because of fear, seems to me as non-logic when there are so many other things that security could/should be more worried about.

Ron@SOG


[This message has been edited by Ron@SOG (edited 01-11-2001).]
 
Not alot of logical thinking comes out of a courtroom...

And come to think of it, MOST objects can be used as weapons, even though that use was not intended when they were designed.

But let us not forget the Reginald Denny Assault trial (That poor truck driver that was dragged from his vehicle and nearly beaten to death during the initial outbreak of the '92 LA riots.) The court ruled that the brick (or cinderblock?) that was hurled at his head was NOT a deadly weapon.

Go figure

------------------
Glen AKA Centaur
"I'll be your Huckleberry."
- Doc Holiday
 
Bein a Sgt./Deputy Sheriff in the courts and a knife lover I see both sides here.Weapon being the first thought by anyone is a large conceren.BUT,you wouldn't be;\leive the amont of keys we find laying on the benches during recess of court. Last week I found a set of keys left by a local security officer with a leatherman micra tooland,2 handcuff keys on them!!!!! Did the Deputy let the man in with them or did they just get past him??? I don't know.No matter what the reason(attempted escape,fake fight,etc.,etc.)what if for any reason what so ever an inmate could have gotten to that key ring???There may have been 2 cuff keys and a very dangerous weapon possibly floating around inside the jail.Now, think of this lets just say what if..........What if for some unexplainable reason you had a family member in jail and that small tool with blade was able to make it back into the jail and said family member was maimed with said tool.Everyone would scream about the weapon in the jail,failing to realize it started waaaaaayy back in the court building by a harmless little tool that was only supposed to be in the building 15-20 min.Yes pens ,pencils etc. can be used to stab and maim,but,somewhere you have to start not allowing certain things. In our town even not going into the court room itself is acceptable because our trusty's clean the entire 4 floors. Yes, all inmates are supposed to be searched often and on un announced times.But the Deputy's are human.Sure some are not taking there job as serious as they should. Not to mention their personal problems/lifes.For what ever reason things happen. It's just me , but to try to keep as few weapons accessable as possible when I go into the courts and I'm not working I try not to carry anything like a weapon if I possibly can.Maybe it's because I work in the enviroment but putting my tools down for a few moments to conduct my business is a small price to pay for.........possibly my saftey at work tomorrow??????????????? Just an opinion from a guy who's there and does that on a daily basis. Dave
 
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Loki:
<snip>No one will be called upon to justify a decision in the event of adverse outcome. <snip>.</font>

Yep. Best said "Zero tolerance, Zero Brains"

 
Ron@SOG wrote:

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">But if it is a tool for the custodian, how does the definition turn into a weapon when in the hands of a student?</font>

Good question, Ron. School maintenance personnel need these types of cutting tools to help them do their day to day jobs. On the other side of the issue, a student is at school to learn. The way schools see it, she/he has no business bringing any guns/knives/other contraband to school with them. The same knife in the hands of a maintenance employee would be construed as a "weapon" by school administration when in the hands of a student. That is the fine-line that defines a "weapon" and a tool.

------------------
Proud member of AKTI, NCCKG, NCKK, and SCAK

In memory of James K. Mattis

[This message has been edited by Dexter Ewing (edited 01-11-2001).]
 
Back
Top