Courthouse Security Too Tight

I was suprised last spring when I went to the local courthouse and they sent my spydercard through the xray machine inside my wallet. They didnt even blink . I just chuckled and walked on in...

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You can tell a knife nut by their hairless arms....
 
Now I see Ron was talking about a ten-story building full of all kinds of government offices I'd like to retract the word "reasonable" I used in my previous post.

-Cougar :{)
 
Hell, who says I don't need a knife to learn? I used my Perkins Gryfen to sharpen a pencil in the middle of my statistics exam two days ago, and the pliers on my Leatherman to pull staples out of a set of photocopies so I could put them in a binder. Seem like pretty legitimate uses for sharp/lethal objects in an educational setting to me. Of course, I can see drawing the line at a bowie knife, but whenever I read about students expelled for having a steak knife in their lunch box, I have to ask myself how sensible policies like "zero tolerance" are.
 
Hey Dexter...Schools do have "contraband" or extraneous/unnecessary item rules. Walkmen, pagers (unless parental permission is given), aspirin, Tums, and other things in many school districts are not accepted. But girls can bring a purse full of who-knows-what, including many times a metal nail file. The nail file is a useful tool. In the same way a small gent-type knife or a mini-tool is a useful tool as well. This scissor cuts paper and string off clothing, the file takes rough edges of my nails (those sharp edges would drive me nuts if I had to wait hours to smooth them out), the screwdriver adjusts my glasses, the knife blade gets out those rocks wedged in the treads of my shoes. I personally don't think the items here in question are out-of-line for a courthouse, government building, school, or any other place.

Cougar…The building is called the “Snohomish County Courthouse.” I can see where misinterpretation could have happened. I knew what I was talking about.
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Dave...Thanks for your input. A friend of mine (and SOG rep) is a policeman assigned to Seattle's King County Jail. Though I understand the tough position you are in, where is the line drawn where these tools are no longer welcome? Personally, I would draw that line in "restricted" areas. From my understanding, prisoners (especially the more dangerous ones) do not mingle around the entrance of the courtroom or visit the public restroom down the hall. They are separated from the public, and if they are near or mingling with non-residents (non-prisoners), they are handcuffed and in the direct custody of law enforcement (or aren’t they always?). So again, where is the line drawn? The railing that separates the front and back of the courtroom? The courtroom, itself? The floor of the building on which the courtroom resides? The building? The parking garage? I don't mean to be flippant on this issue, but in this case, I think the lines are drawn in the wrong place.

From my understanding, weapons are defined by law (like state, federal, whatever). Daggers and switchblades have legal restrictions. Knives of various lengths when concealed are weapons, but when not concealed, are not weapons. Shouldn’t a school district get its lead from governing law? A “Weapons Free Zone” should be defined by statute, not by paranoid school administrators being lead by their fears or personal convictions. In other words, “Zero Tolerance Against Weapons” should only apply to legally defined items. The same thing goes for the courthouse building. The security guard said that they have a zero tolerance knife policy. I felt like challenging him to show me what law categorizes and restricts a mini-tool…but that would have been a useless battle…so I’m venting here…

Thanks for listening, you just saved me psychologist fees.

Ron&SOG
 
i hate this zero tolerance crap (im in high school)
when i was younger i could carry a small pocket knife,no worries,even as recent as 5 or 6th grade,then the !@#$ hit the fan.

NO.the zero tolerance plan will not stop the "weapons" being brought to school.ITS EXTREMELY EASY TO BRING A KNIFE TO SCHOOL.if you bring it,but tell no one,and dont drag it out,no one will ever know.its that easy.i have on many occasion brought a multi-tool to school,or even a smallish lockback,but never have had the zero tolerance rule put into effect on me.
what about kids who bring a knife to school without knowing they have it,then go talk to the principal about it,but still get busted.what a load of bull****.
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I could be off base here but I think what may bother us most about banning knives,multi-tools,and so forth is that it becomes an insult to our way of thinking about these items.I would no more think about injuring someone with a knife or multi-tool as I would if I had a pencil in my pocket.The next arguement is that there are alot of sick people who wouldn't think twice about yanking these items off you to get a weapon.Maybe everyone needs to carry a gun like they did in the old west
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"Just me and my multi-tools."
 
Hi Maurice,

I am for keeping WEAPONS off school campuses and out of courtrooms. My concern is the definition of weapon and who is defining it.

You're right, it is nearly impossible to restrict a determined person from bring what they want to school. Many workplaces have a no gun/weapon statement in their employment manual, but that does not stop the crazed person from "going postal." They are not going to say to themselves one morning, "Darn, I can’t bring this gun to work to hurt someone because it is against the workplace rules," they just do it. The rules need to be there. It is those rules that will allow the school district to expel a student who is in possession of weapon (notice weapon, not tool) before damage is done, and hopefully get the student the help they need (with anger, depression, or whatever is causing the problem).

The workplace, many times, is privately owned and your employment is considered "at will"; meaning you don't have to be there if you don't like the rules the boss makes. But public buildings belong to all of us and we vote in leaders to write and put into place laws to govern us. I just want to know which law categorizes and restricts my CrossCut in a public place and why my wife can’t carry hers to work at school.

Ron@SOG
 
Maurice wrote:

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">NO.the zero tolerance plan will not stop the "weapons" being brought to school.ITS EXTREMELY EASY TO BRING A KNIFE TO SCHOOL</font>
Click to expand...

Mo is right. Every once in a while a story will make the local or national news about some kid who brings a firearm to school, even after the well publicized incidents in Paducah and Columbine. There still are some who just have to learn the hard way...

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Proud member of AKTI, NCCKG, NCKK, and SCAK

In memory of James K. Mattis
 
Ron@SOG wrote:

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Hey Dexter...Schools do have "contraband" or extraneous/unnecessary item rules. Walkmen, pagers (unless parental permission is given), aspirin, Tums, and other things in many school districts are not accepted. But girls can bring a purse full of who-knows-what,including many times a metal nail file. The nail file is a useful tool. In the same way a small gent-type knife or a mini-tool is a useful tool as well. This scissor cuts paper and string off clothing, the file takes rough edges of my nails (those sharp edges would drive me nuts if I had to wait hours to smooth them out), the screwdriver adjusts my glasses, the knife blade gets out those rocks wedged in the treads of my shoes. I personally don't think the items here in question are out-of-line for a courthouse, government building, school, or any other place</font>
Click to expand...

Ron - oops, forgot about these items being listed as "contraband" as well. No matter how many times we plead to school officials that a small knife or multi-tool are indeed tools and not weapons, they are not going to buy it at all. Goes to show how much society has changed especially in light of the school violence incidents.

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Proud member of AKTI, NCCKG, NCKK, and SCAK

In memory of James K. Mattis
 
Centaur: Your post about the Denny case is completely in error. The court never ruled a brick is not a deadly weapon. You might be confused about what the defendant was convicted of by a jury Before you slam the "courts" perhaps you should get your facts straight.
 
That makes me sick! when the level of common sense and personal responsibility has fallen this low it makes me want to scream!!!
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Bladelaw-

If I make a mistake, I admit it. I was going off of memory on that one.



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Glen AKA Centaur
"I'll be your Huckleberry."
- Doc Holiday
 
Bladelaw -

I realize that this is off topic, I won't take it any further than this post. Maybe my confusion was in the charges. Was it "Assault" rather than "Attempted Murder?" Maybe it's the my Youngzheimer's
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talking, but I remember it deemed by the court in that case that a brick hurled at the victim's head was not attempted murder.

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Glen AKA Centaur
"I'll be your Huckleberry."
- Doc Holiday
 
Was it the Sci. Fiction writer Robert A Heilein (I know a screwed up the spelling) who said, "There are no dangerous weapons only dangerous people"?

I can see not allowing a knife into criminal court, but I question the usefulness of "zero tollerance policies" in the work place. Bad guys will ignore them. I frankly think a qualified armed teacher would have been useful at Columbine.


 
I think tht the whole matter of restricting all or certain knives (and other things) from schools and courts is a matter of interpretation and reasonableness.

In Texas, knife blades of up to 5 1/2" are legal to carry in MOST places. Of course certain knives are illegal regardless of the length of the blade. MOST jurisdictions go by the state law on knife blade length but not all. Most of the school regulations I have seen also quote the state law (but many still consider ANY knife contraband). Same goes for the courts.

When I reported for jury duty, the restrictions on knives was posted right at the door - and it quoted the state law - meaning that according to the sign, I could have LEGALLY carried a legal type of knife with a blade of up to 5 1/2 inches in length into the building. However, considering myself a prudent a reasonable person, I had asked myself before leaving my car, "Do I really need my 4 inch folder in court?" Answer: NO. So what I did was simply put my Leatherman Micra on my keyring which I placed in the little bowl at the entrance checkpoint. They officer saw it and actually said that she wished she had one. But the metal detector kept going off. It was my copper wrist bracelet which she actually made me take off and go through the metal detector again, and then she very closely examined the bracelet before giving it back to me (I guess it may have concealed a weapon).

I too read of the kid who was expelled for the little GI Joe plastic gun (I think he was very young - seams like 7 or 8). There was another case of a teenage girl expelled for having a common table knife in here lunch bag to spread things on her bread. In my opinion, school officials invoking a gun is a gun ora knife is a knife zero tolerance rule in that case did one thing - deny the child a public education. The things posed NO hazard to ANYONE.

And I think that public safety and common sense should prevail. Do we arrest the housewife who buys a 12" butcher knife at a store, puts the bag containing it on the front seat next to her in the car and gets stopped for a traffic violation? Some LEO would - believe me. Most probably wouldn't but some would. No common sense to this at all.

I think that laws, especially illegal acts, should be based on intent not simply on an object or POSSIBLE use of the object. Some jurisdictions actually state that an act is illegal regardless whether or not there was any intent to commit the act. A mistake, is very different from a deliberate act, and yet in many cases the accused are tried and convicted to the same standards.

Often, we inact laws, sometimes irrationally in response to an event. A student is caught with a gun or a knife at school - rather than deal with that one student with existing laws and rules, we often demand "tougher" laws and rules - which will do NOTHING to stop illegal acts. Will a new "tougher" rule stating that certain items are not legal to carry at school, PREVENT, the carrying of such items. Probably not. It might deter it though. For example, a drunk driver runs a stop sign at an intersection, hits another vehicle going through the intersection and kills some of the occupants. - Of course the offending driver is dealt with in accordance to law - but the community DEMANDS that something be done about the intersection. So thousands of dollars are spent installing traffic lights, which should, according to the experts at least help prevent such tragic events in the future. They don't.

And some laws are vague - sometime deliberately. Most knife laws specify blade length as a determining factor as to whether or not a knife blade is legal or not. But that same law, in most cases, does not state how the blade is to be measures. Techically the length of a blade is measured from the tip of the point, in a straight line to the far end of the tang of the blade, even if that tang is inside the handle of the knife. I hear that many LEOs measure the "exposed" length of the blade (or "penetrating" length) even though that is not stated in the law. But some will consider the whole blade length or even the whole length of the knife! I only carry folding knives that the entire blade length is well within the law. And I carry an extract of the blade length clause, because I have found that many LEOs do not know, or at least mistate the law.

I carried a small pockeknife when I went to school too. It was legal to do so. We never once had a knife problem at school and lots of the guys carried them. But we carried them as tools - not weapons. I was amazed when I went to one college that had a rule that NO knife of ANY type could be carried on school property. Period. No reason for it, just a rule. They considered ALL knives weapons.

In many cases, we knife and gun people are our own worst enemies. We push the envelope and carry the biggest or most that we can carry, rather than base what we carry on what our planned activities are. Often we ask, what can we get away with carrying? Now I do believe that we should be able to "Keep and bear arms" (Is a knife an "arm") anytime, anyplace as the Constitution states. But I also think that prudence and reasonableness should prevail. If you are going to the office, carry a small pocketknife. If you are going hunting and need a fixed blade knife then carry one (Assumeing these acts are legal in your area of course).

Lots of you will say I am wrong but people and the courts generally apply a standard of reasonableness on acts we commit. In today's society, is it reasonable to carry a fixed blade combat knife to work in a highrise office? To some it may be, but not to me, and probably not to most people.

We need to act. Inform our council members, and legislators to change the laws to include reasonableness rather than blanket rules. And we need to act reasonably regardless of what we can do legally.

 
Zero Tolerance is a politically correct phrase meaning (select all of the following):

1. Total Crap
2. If someone says ALL blades of ANY sort are illegal, then they can't be sued for making allowances for, or being lenient toward, a certain type of blade, because if that blade type were to be used in an assault, they are LEGALLY LIABLE.
3. Before making any decision, principals now ask themselves: How would this decision be viewed in a court of law? How legally liable is this decision making me and the school?

Think about it. School is kind of like the army. Any freedom or activity that would be considered normal or commonplace "on the outside" is probably forbidden unless specifically allowed in the regulations.

Zero Tolerance is simply another way of saying "brainless."
 
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