Cpm-189?

[nozh2002]

Now it is clear that market turning to ZDP-189. William&Henry has almost all models made of ZDP-189. Spyderco and Kershaw already introducing several models with great success - great demand (which remindes me situation on consumer market back in USSR - same huge lines, preorders, speculative prices on second market etc...). But Crucible still have nothing to offer as an answer to this Japanese call. Last what came from them was CPM-154 and it seems that only one model was made out it. CPM S120V was promiced but never make it way to production.

I am pretty sure that it should be some "made in USA" super steel same as ZDP-189. But so far no indication of it...

All this high vanadium steel keep high wear resistance but they are very soft to have edge similat ro what ZDP189 can offer. Why Crucible can not cook something with same composition as ZDP189 and SRS15 for cuttlery industry? Then it will be widely available for everybody including custommakers.

Thanks, Vassili.

 

[The Mastiff]

Isn't S125V what you are talking about? Granted it's a high vanadium unlike the japanese super steels but it is a monster nevertheless. The record holder for steels available to knife makers is still CPM 15V, a very high vanadium steel.

The Japanese steels seem to go for the smaller carbides and use more moly, tungston, etc. They don't seem to have the problem with ZDP 189 steel chipping out like S30V was.

Hitachi only allows certain places to heat treat it too whereas Cruicible seems to be trying to do everything it can to help knifemakers do it themselves.

Yeah, I'd bet Cruicible or other steel plants can make steels like ZDP 189 pretty easily. It is real easy if you don't let but 3 or 4 places heat treat it strictly according to a recipe.

I guess it's a different way of doing business. Joe

 

[Larrin]

Crucible, unlike Japanese companies, is not all about copying everyone else, they're letting the Japanese have their little nitch for high hardness stainlesses and they'll stick with what they do best. S90V matches ZDP-189 in wear resistance, while having greater toughness, and probably similar or better corrosion resistance. If they sold more S90V, maybe there would be a reason to release S125V, but apparently S90V is more wear resistant for most companies/people to handle as it is.

IMO, 60-61 Rc is plenty of strength for a knife edge, but obviously you disagree.

 

[Cliff Stamp]

But Crucible still have nothing to offer as an answer to this Japanese call.

Crucible is very new to making knife steels, S30V was essentially their first one according to Barber. Other companies have been making steels especially for knives for a very long time. If Crucible sees a demand for a high hardness and high carbide stainless then they will adjust accordingly. It is very likely you will see them come out with a low carbide and high hardness stainless steel once more people become aware of the benefits of high edge stability.

Crucible, unlike Japanese companies, is not all about copying everyone else, they're letting the Japanese have their little nitch for high hardness stainlesses and they'll stick with what they do best. S90V matches ZDP-189 in wear resistance, while having greater toughness, and probably similar or better corrosion resistance. If they sold more S90V, maybe there would be a reason to release S125V, but apparently S90V is more wear resistant for most companies/people to handle as it is.

IMO, 60-61 Rc is plenty of strength for a knife edge, but obviously you disagree.

That entire post is completely absurd on so many levels, check Mike Swaims work on rec.knives as just one example of the influence of hardness for example, and the "little niche" snide comment is just silly considering how the role of ZDP-189 is expanding and it is getting heavy praise from users. Not only does the bold part commit an open and public act of libel against all Japanese companies, but it is heavily ironic considering RWL34, a P/M alternative to 154CM was available long before Crucible offered CPM-154CM. Give some credit to the other manufacturers besides Crucible who not only make steels but have been making knife-specific steels for a very long time and actively sponsering research into their development.

-Cliff

 

[symphonyincminor]

IMO, 60-61 Rc is plenty of strength for a knife edge, but obviously you disagree.

I'm really glad you don't own or oversee any large steel manufacturing plants.

 

[M Wadel]

i say more of everything i would like at least %% 10C, 15Cr, 20V, 20W, 20Co, 5Ni and a dash of nitrogen just to stay safe... Fe balance. :thumbup: lets call it CPM S94000000VV+ZPD-Ultra

 

[gaj999]

i say more of everything i would like at least %% 10C, 15Cr, 20V, 20W, 20Co, 5Ni and a dash of nitrogen just to stay safe... Fe balance. :thumbup: lets call it CPM S94000000VV+ZPD-Ultra

I'm not sure that you could call this "steel" with a straight face. It's less than 10% iron!

Gordon

 

[nozh2002]

Isn't S125V what you are talking about?

Yes. I remember Sal promicing Military CPM S125V same time as ZDP Delica, but instead we have Military BG42.

Hitachi only allows certain places to heat treat it too whereas Cruicible seems to be trying to do everything it can to help knifemakers do it themselves.

I am not sure where this came from. I got HT instruction from Anton from Tokio while ago. From this website - it is not a secret:

http://www.hatta.co.jp/price.html

I guess it is some japanes or american salesperson - middleman tryed to make sweet deal and do this rediqulos requirements just to make more money out of it.

I read about W&H buying coocking knives and makes their ZDP knives out of them plus sending it back to Japan for Heat Treatment. Well - on that site, I mentioned, you may buy ZDP-189 stock and get instruction for HT. It is up to you how to do it hard way or easy...

As I understand several custom makers already bought ZDP this way and HT it (one with Paul Bos help).

So nothing to blame Hitachi for. And my post is about Crucible or American steel industry not being able to offer anything comparable. And this is not only ZDP189 - it is variety of steels which did not make their way to US knife industry yet - SRS17, YXR7, some matrix high-speed steel etc... While Crucible only pumping up composition with vanadium (actually Japanese does not "copy" this and never actually value it too much).

As I understand high volume of vanadium carbides - high wear resistance which more affect "grindability" of blade then really affects edge quality. So it is more expensive to produce it - more grinding belts, with less bang on edge quality.

Thanks, Vassili.

 

[Cliff Stamp]

i say more of everything i would like at least %% 10C, 15Cr, 20V, 20W, 20Co, 5Ni and a dash of nitrogen just to stay safe.

There is a class of HSS which are very hard, 70+ HRC, extreme high carbide volume, and designed to be used where carbide is too brittle. Carpenter's version is micro-melt maxamet.

-Cliff

 

[HoB]

I think, really the key is not more, but smaller. If you could take S30V in it current composition but could keep the carbides an order of magnitude smaller than they are now you truely would have a super steel. I think the CPM process is a step in the right direction, but it is misused in by putting more and more "stuff" into the steel. I would say: keep the carbide formers at at a "moderate" volume (well, something that is considered these days as moderate) and concentrate on distributing the finer and finer....and of course more evenly as well.

It seems to me that super steels have less and less to do with their chemical composition and more and more with the the way they are made. Well, maybe this has always been true. More consistent production (some people have reported carbide "chunks" easily visible with the naked eye in sheets of D2 for example, not exaclty a good distribution) more consistent heat treat etc.

But for the moment I would be interested to see what you would get if you would take D2 an CPM it.

 

[nozh2002]

...But for the moment I would be interested to see what you would get if you would take D2 an CPM it...

Something like SRS15 I guess, which is pretty close to D2 but has some additional W and V. Pretty impressive and suitable for big knives - also Japanese PM steel.

Thanks, Vassili.

P.S. And it is stainless, having bit more Cr

 

[Cliff Stamp]

I think the CPM process is a step in the right direction, but it is misused in by putting more and more "stuff" into the steel.

This approach works very well for many applications where you don't need fine edges. Carpenter and Crucible both have documents where they show the massive improvement in tool lifetime by using one of their high wear steels. However these tools can typically require 0.02" of steel removed in sharpening - this is in no way relevant to knife use. That would be the equivalent of wearing off the entire edge bevel of a knife.

Note there are US steel manufacturers other than Crucible. Carpenter for example has 440-XH which has the corrosion resistance of 440C but can reach 64 HRC and is promoted as a stainless version of D2. So you have high wear like D2, high corrosion resistance like 440C and a very high hardness. That sounds like an attractive package for those who like coarse and high wear stainless. They also have a number of high wear, high carbide steels, some are so high they approach pure carbide.

-Cliff

 

[Larrin]

That entire post is completely absurd on so many levels,

I wish you wouldn't hold anything back, Cliff.

check Mike Swaims work on rec.knives as just one example of the influence of hardness for example, and the "little niche" snide comment is just silly considering how the role of ZDP-189 is expanding and it is getting heavy praise from users.

Crucible steels outsell ZDP-189 by many times.

Not only does the bold part commit an open and public act of libel against all Japanese companies,

It's just an observation.

but it is heavily ironic considering RWL34, a P/M alternative to 154CM was available long before Crucible offered CPM-154CM.

So, RWL-34 is a PM version of 154CM, but when Crucible decides to develop CPM-154 then it is a copy of RWL34?

Give some credit to the other manufacturers besides Crucible who not only make steels but have been making knife-specific steels for a very long time and actively sponsering research into their development.

-Cliff

Hitachi won't even sell ZDP-189 in America. They have their "secret" heat treatment and it has to be heat treated by an authorized heat treater. Maybe if they were out to help I would like them more.

Edit: I am aware that they publish heat treatment data, but just ask Sal, they don't want you to heat treat it.

 

[Larrin]

I'm really glad you don't own or oversee any large steel manufacturing plants.

I guess from now on I'll have to spell out IMO as in my opinion. Am I not allowed to have an opinion? I would very much like to hear in which cases you have preferred a knife at 64+ Rc to one that is at 60 Rc, so that I can hear your opinion.

 

[thombrogan]

In my homemade knives (the joys of hacksaw blades misused) and the 'blanks' Alvin gave me, there's lots of fun with edges near RC64-65. My Spyderco brand Delica 4 folding pocket knife has ZDP-189 at a similar hardness and my Fallkniven brand U2 folding pocketknife has Takefu's SGPS just slightly softer. All make me happy.

 

[thombrogan]

But I'm of the opinion that all light-use knives should be fully hardened M2 and all heavy-use knives should be S5 and that medium-use knives can easily be replaced with light-use knives if they're fully hardened M2 and ground very thin.

 

[Cliff Stamp]

Crucible steels outsell ZDP-189 by many times.

Yes and 420 stainless outsells all of Crucible's knife steels put together. Your arguement is also horribly inconsistent because you take the exact opposite approach on AEB-L. Very little of that is used in North America, should Crucible ignore the performance it offers and not try to develop a steel which has similar high edge stability and see if they can overcome of the limitations of wear resistance due to the ingot manufacturer of AEB-L, hardly.

So, RWL-34 is a PM version of 154CM, but when Crucible decides to develop CPM-154 then it is a copy of RWL34?

No it is obviously an innovation for Crucible to produce a P/M alternative of a steel when that already exists unlike the Japanese companies which would of course just be copying if they did the same thing.

For those that are unaware, all steel manufacturers produce their versions of many standard steels under their own trade names. They also have similar steels which are designed to compete in the same class with steels from other manufacturers.

Obviously when one manufacturer comes out with a successful product the others will try to produce their own version to compete assuming they care about that share of the market. Someone had to do it first and essentially everyone else has to take that and try to produce a competing product.

There are already many steels which compete with the Japanese steels cited, BG-42 for example is a very high hardness stainless HSS. HSS is very demanding to heat treat which is why it isn't well used unfortunately.

-Cliff

 

[Larrin]

Yes and 420 stainless outsells all of Crucible's knife steels put together. Your arguement is also horribly inconsistent because you take the exact opposite approach on AEB-L. Very little of that is used in North America, should Crucible ignore the performance it offers and not try to develop a steel which has similar high edge stability and see if they can overcome of the limitations of wear resistance due to the ingot manufacturer of AEB-L, hardly.

Crucible makes 420, though that isn't to say they sell all of the 420 used in knives. My only point is that Crucible doesn't have a need to make a steel to compete with ZDP if their current steels already outsell it. I didn't attempt to imply any kind of superiority by that particular statement.

 

[nozh2002]

They have their "secret" heat treatment and it has to be heat treated by an authorized heat treater. Maybe if they were out to help I would like them more.

Edit: I am aware that they publish heat treatment data, but just ask Sal, they don't want you to heat treat it.

Kershaw made Leek ut of ZDP189 in US, of course this is KAI but in US. May be Sal spoke to wrong people? This seems strange for me - they won't sell to US? This make no sence. Russian selling heavy rocket engines to US, US selling superomputers to Russia, but Japan not selling cuttlery steel to US? For what reason - not to get US dollars?

I got ZDP myself without any problem and I do not know why Sal or anybody else can not get it also and it does not make sence for Spyderco anyway because big part of their knives made by G-Sakai anyway.

Thanks, Vassili.

 

[nozh2002]

But I'm of the opinion that all light-use knives should be fully hardened M2 and all heavy-use knives should be S5 and that medium-use knives can easily be replaced with light-use knives if they're fully hardened M2 and ground very thin.

Japanese have SRS15 - 65HRC HS Stainless PM steel, and YXR7 for this.

Thanks, Vassili.