Cpm-189?

[nozh2002]

vassili,
Be patient.

Four years passed... How long should I be patient?

Thanks, Vassili.

 

[bubblewhip]

CPM S90V is generally considered the equivalent to ZDP-189. In all honesty I don't expect ZDP-189 to be a very mainstream enthusiast steel (weird how I say that) I doubt it will replace the standby's like 154, VG-10, and CPM S30V. ZDP has a lot of problems with it's brittleness, it's about half as tough as 154, and is extraordinarily difficult to sharpen, especially on ceramic systems like the Sharpamaker and even harder on Japanese whetstones because the HRC on that steel is basically over 65. Maybe the case where your sharpening media is actually softer than the steel itself. S90V is softer and tougher while not giving much in stain resistance and wear resistance, because it's source of wear resistance is from a high percentage of vanadium.

 

[nozh2002]

CPM S90V is generally considered the equivalent to ZDP-189. In all honesty I don't expect ZDP-189 to be a very mainstream enthusiast steel (weird how I say that) I doubt it will replace the standby's like 154, VG-10, and CPM S30V. ZDP has a lot of problems with it's brittleness, it's about half as tough as 154, and is extraordinarily difficult to sharpen, especially on ceramic systems like the Sharpamaker and even harder on Japanese whetstones because the HRC on that steel is basically over 65. Maybe the case where your sharpening media is actually softer than the steel itself. S90V is softer and tougher while not giving much in stain resistance and wear resistance, because it's source of wear resistance is from a high percentage of vanadium.

CPM S90V as well as CPM 10V show same results which is lower then not only ZDP189, but several other steels. It is even behind CPM M2 and CPM D2 taking 11th place (while CT-XHP (440XH) on second after Dozier's D2).

ZDP189 does not have any problem with britleness until it is overhardened - I used it for everything, almost on abuse level - no any problem with brittleness, it stand everything better then many other steel. Here is sample of jobs I used it for:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O0PHxVP6WSo

And it is easier to sharpen then soft steels. I can sharpen ZDP-189 to whittle hair without any troubles, while ATS-34 and 154CM need much more attention.

A doubt that CPM S90V will be easier to sharpen on water stone or ceramic due to huge amount of Vanadium Carbides which are harder then Aluminum Oxide (ceramic abrasive), so it will be impossible to do edge finer then those carbide grains - about 2 microns.

Crucible just can not came with anything better then ZDP189, while Carpenter have 440XH (which outperform ZDP189 as well as well heat treated carbon steel) for years in production!

Thanks, Vassili.

 

[bubblewhip]

CPM S90V as well as CPM 10V show same results which is lower then not only ZDP189, but several other steels. It is even behind CPM M2 and CPM D2 taking 11th place (while CT-XHP (440XH) on second after Dozier's D2).

ZDP189 does not have any problem with britleness until it is overhardened - I used it for everything, almost on abuse level - no any problem with brittleness, it stand everything better then many other steel. Here is sample of jobs I used it for:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O0PHxVP6WSo

And it is easier to sharpen then soft steels. I can sharpen ZDP-189 to whittle hair without any troubles, while ATS-34 and 154CM need much more attention.

A doubt that CPM S90V will be easier to sharpen on water stone or ceramic due to huge amount of Vanadium Carbides which are harder then Aluminum Oxide (ceramic abrasive), so it will be impossible to do edge finer then those carbide grains - about 2 microns.

Crucible just can not came with anything better then ZDP189, while Carpenter have 440XH (which outperform ZDP189 as well as well heat treated carbon steel) for years in production!

Thanks, Vassili.

I'd like to see the chart you are looking at that lists a steel with 2.40 carbon and about 9% Vanadium was outdone by a steel with 1.55% carbon and only 0.8 vanadium. I think whoever wrote that chart was smoking weed or did a really bad test with a very wide HRC variable in the mix as well as blade angles.

I also have no idea where your coming from that ZDP 189 is easier to sharpen than 154 or ATS-34. I'm thinking the ZDP you bought was hardened to about 55-60 HRC to compensate for it's toughness. And to be honest your doing pretty light duty work it's not a true test of toughness at all. Lightly bumping into small rocks with steel, ANY kind of steel is not going to cause it to fail horribly. You can probably dig with a shard of glass which is harder than any of our knives. with what your doing in the video and not have any edge damage. If you start doing some serious impact testing like batoning you are going to find some serious differences between 440 or 154 against ZDP.

 

[Ramm9]

Four years passed... How long should I be patient?

Thanks, Vassili.

Give it another six years and check back in, please. If there's no profitable market for something it isn't going to happen.

Wow, a necro Vassili and Cliffy together thread....

Going out for popcorn, pick some up for anybody else?

 

[The Mastiff]

I've loved ZDP since it was introduced. I rarely go long without carrying one of mine with it. On that note I've found for my uses CPM M4 is every bit as excellent a knife steel. In some respects it's better. Namely toughness and ease of sharpening. I haven't done any real wear resistance comparisons but I'd expect not too much difference in normal, day to day type usage .

Note that I don't really place the issue of corrosion resistance up there with wear resistance, and toughness. I grew up on carbon steels and take care of them so stain resistance isn't an issue to me.

CPM M4 is IMO even easier to sharpen than ZDP, takes as thin, or thinner edges with plenty of strength, especially when ran up above RC 62. RC 64 is better yet IMO for it.

Both steels to me are perfect at arounf RC 65 in fact.

No, not a crucible ZDP, but it sure performs with it. I'm glad the mainstreal production companies are expanding to these steels.

I just wish I could get someone to make a run of an EDC able knife of at least 3.5 inches using a powder steel version of Vascowear at RC 62. It would be a perfect medium /hard use blade steel. Almost the toughness of it's cousin 3V, but slightly better wear resistance and IMO, higher quality edges.

For all you guys that complain about rust spots on stainless steels, maybe you should stay away.

Come to think about it, I wouldn't mind seeing an EDC folder made of 52100 at RC 62, or Super Blue about the same.



BTW, does anybody know of any current knives on the market using SRS15? Haven't seen any in about 2 years. It seemed like a steel I'd like.

Joe

 

[DennisStrickland]

mastiff has a good point about the m4 as choice over zdp. carbon steels are no problem for an old timer as myself. my tests on cardboard last year with the mule in m4 were phenomenal.

 

[nozh2002]

mastiff has a good point about the m4 as choice over zdp. carbon steels are no problem for an old timer as myself. my tests on cardboard last year with the mule in m4 were phenomenal.

M4 best what Crucible can offer but it is not better then plain carbon 1095 (by Jody Muller) or 52100 (SR-101) or Russian X12MF and takes 7th place. Being, I assume, much more expensive then 1095. So in result - what the point? Have much more expensive non stainless steel? It can stand high speed cutting, but it is not important for knives as well I guess it is not tougher then 1095 or 52100.

I hope tsdevanna will comment on this - I was patient for 4 years as he/she asked, as well as tell - does Crucible consider stainless steel which outperform ZDP189 as profitable market (with all this usual drama Ramm9 has some point) - Carpenter have 440XH steel which is better then ZDP189 - I am not sure does they consider it as profitable market or they just have much better metallurgists in R&D then Crucible.

Thanks, Vassili.

 

[Thomas W]

Vassili

Obviously a lot has changed over at Crucible over the last 4 years, and as much as they are concerned with testing your patience, perhaps they are content with the CPM steels that currently reside on the marketplace. Possibly they're concentrating on areas of their business that really makes money?

If the CPM 90V, 110V, 125V, M4, D2, 35V's in their line up don't seemingly stack up to your drive to find the ultimate combination of properties that rule the steel universe, maybe you should just move on and put your time and efforts somewhere else. Despite what place a specific steel placed in your individual tests, there are a ton of people on the board that enjoy their CPM steels everyday, and will continue to do so.

There are seemingly a handful of new steels from Bohler, Uddeholm, and Carpenter to dial in on. You can keep up your criticism with Crucible, but now there are additional mills to look to analyze.

 

[nozh2002]

Vassili

Obviously a lot has changed over at Crucible over the last 4 years, and as much as they are concerned with testing your patience, perhaps they are content with the CPM steels that currently reside on the marketplace. Possibly they're concentrating on areas of their business that really makes money?

If the CPM 90V, 110V, 125V, M4, D2, 35V's in their line up don't seemingly stack up to your drive to find the ultimate combination of properties that rule the steel universe, maybe you should just move on and put your time and efforts somewhere else. Despite what place a specific steel placed in your individual tests, there are a ton of people on the board that enjoy their CPM steels everyday, and will continue to do so.

There are seemingly a handful of new steels from Bohler, Uddeholm, and Carpenter to dial in on. You can keep up your criticism with Crucible, but now there are additional mills to look to analyze.

I perfectly agree that we should not focus on Crucible only - after all for four years of high expectation nothing excited came out, and try other manufacturers Carpenter seems to have way better steel as well as European producers - I am looking forward to see what they may offer.

But yes you are right seems like era of Crucible dominance on knife marked is over. Which is good for everybody - there are so much better steels around to chose from. I guess ton of people will enjoy other then Crucible steels pretty soon - I am pretty happy with 440XH already.

Can you tell - what steels Kershaw will offer in the nearest future?

I personally like to see more mini cyclones with titanium but 440XH steel. Mini Cyclone ZDP/Ti is my favorite knife for four years.

Thanks, Vassili.

 

[Thomas W]

But yes you are right seems like era of Crucible dominance on knife marked is over.

I don't recall saying the above, and in truth I don't see too much of a change from manufacturers regularly utilizing Crucible. Price and availability are two of the reasons why.

there are so much better steels around to chose from.

That's of course debatable

I guess ton of people will enjoy other then Crucible steels pretty soon

I have yet to see a manufacturer that have used Crucible steel with regular production turn away from it, so I don't necessarily agree with your statement. Sprint runs...sure you may see a few more options.

Can you tell - what steels Kershaw will offer in the nearest future?

We've come out with M390 and ELMAX recently. Vanax 35 and 75 are the next two we will go with.

Mini Cyclone ZDP/Ti is my favorite knife for four years.

Thanks, Vassili.

Appreciate that. We still have some inventory of ZDP-189, so there will be future projects on the horizon. Once our ZDP is gone though, we've opted out.

 

[nozh2002]

Yuo sad "There are seemingly a handful of new steels from Bohler, Uddeholm, and Carpenter to dial in on." Which was not a case 4 years ago. So manufacturers now does not look at Crucible as only source of premium steel. 440XH exists for long time, but it is only now it appear on blade (with great success).

I don't recall saying the above, and in truth I don't see too much of a change from manufacturers regularly utilizing Crucible. Price and availability are two of the reasons why.

Of course unlike other, I as a consumer care only about blade quality not "Price and availability" at all.

That's of course debatable

Everything is debatable - you may found a lot of examples of that here. But I am talking not about love and loyalty, but performance test results and best Crucible steels are not on the top so far.

I have yet to see a manufacturer that have used Crucible steel with regular production turn away from it, so I don't necessarily agree with your statement. Sprint runs...sure you may see a few more options.

We'll see, this is not happening in one day, mostly because of logistics and existing stock.

We've come out with M390 and ELMAX recently. Vanax 35 and 75 are the next two we will go with.

Looking forward to try it (unfortunately I already missed Volt, will wait for something else. Vanax 75 look pretty exotic.

Hope you will use US made steel from Carpenter as well.

Appreciate that. We still have some inventory of ZDP-189, so there will be future projects on the horizon. Once our ZDP is gone though, we've opted out.

I already have two of them. I think what we do not have yet - big knife with big ZDP-189 blade (hardened to 64HRC) - one like Youna Hard II. Because of brittleness scare no one make big ZDP knife, except of course Endura, but I like to see big Ti + CF folder with ZDP.

About Cyclone - I will really love to have same but with Carpenter 440XH (CTS-XHP) blade, which according to my test outperform everything including ZDP-189 and alos stainless and also made in US.

Thanks, Vassili.

P.S. On different subject I really like Kershaw start using composite blade technology to bring us exotic and expensive steel for reasonable price. Thanks!

 

[nevermind35]

Vassili: I'm curious on the steel testing that you keep refering to. Would you mind sharing a link or describing your tests and results in detail?

 

[nozh2002]

Vassili: I'm curious on the steel testing that you keep refering to. Would you mind sharing a link or describing your tests and results in detail?

Sure:
http://playground.sun.com/~vasya/Manila-Rope-Results.html

That page as well has links back to bladeforums old threads where it was discussed and described several times...

Thanks, Vassili.

 

[hardheart]

It would be interesting if Bob Dozier buys his D2 from Crucible.

 

[pwet]

your test would have been interresting if you were strictly comparing alloys. from the very few i understood you compared knives from various makers,alloys,with different grinds, heat treats, some from big factories some custom (wich drastically change how the knife is heat treated) etc ....

good knife test, not good alloy test.

 

[Gator97]

your test would have been interresting if you were strictly comparing alloys. from the very few i understood you compared knives from various makers,alloys,with different grinds, heat treats, some from big factories some custom (wich drastically change how the knife is heat treated)

And his initial edges in the tests differ sometimes 100%. I.e. force required to make a cut with. Replicating his own results is also not exactly doable, for him...

M4 being the same as 1095 or no better than 1095 is a weird claim too. I dunno what happens at 60 HRC, but harden those knives at 64-65 HRC, grind thin edges and the differences are clear. It's not the alloy's fault if one can't benefit from it.

 

[shelbysguns]

Ugh, I hate these threads. I have one question. When was the last time you NEEDED a "super-steel"? Unless your job is to de-animate cardboard boxes, what are you doing? Cutting tons and tons of manilla rope? What? Sure, I like and appreciate those awesome steels, but I don't need them. If crucible doesn't make that perfect steel you want..... um here's a simple solution. Don't buy knives made in those steels. If you can't find what you want in production knives, get a custom blade made to your specs by a custom maker. Seriously though, do you think that because you want crucible to make an alternative to ZDP-189 or Carpenter 440XH, they will? You said you don't care about price, then do like I suggested, and get a blade made. There, now isn't it all better?

 

[Thomas W]

Of course unlike other, I as a consumer care only about blade quality not "Price and availability" at all.

Unfortunately price and availability play a huge roll with manufacturers, and the steel they use. Lead times can especially be killers in whether a factory will move forward with a project. Additionally, investing into high dollar steel with a heavy lead time is not usually the most attractive situation for production. At least not for us.

...but performance test results and best Crucible steels are not on the top so far.

They are for Blade Sports International.

I think you meant to say they are not the best performer for you.

On different subject I really like Kershaw start using composite blade technology to bring us exotic and expensive steel for reasonable price. Thanks!

Thanks Vassili, I'm suprised to hear you say this though, as you have been critical of the CB technology in the past.

 

[nozh2002]

Unfortunately price and availability play a huge roll with manufacturers, and the steel they use. Lead times can especially be killers in whether a factory will move forward with a project. Additionally, investing into high dollar steel with a heavy lead time is not usually the most attractive situation for production. At least not for us.

They are for Blade Sports International.

I think you meant to say they are not the best performer for you.

Thanks Vassili, I'm suprised to hear you say this though, as you have been critical of the CB technology in the past.

Well, I was not critical to CB technology ever. I was never fanboy of Kershaw or any other companies. My comment which was seen I guess as critisism by your "Mafia" (creating this beast was big mistake IMHO - it became impossible to discuss any issues with Kershaw (like I was labeled as being critical to CB)), was that CB technology allow you to bring to us expensive and exotic steels for reasonable price and so there is no point to make blade out of to average steel just for look.

So I very welcome CB with ZDP189, Elmax etc... This is what practical value of CB is on my opinion, not to make two colored blade (did you try titanium as a base BTW?).

Thanks, Vassili.