Cpm-189?

[Larrin]

Kershaw made Leek ut of ZDP189 in US, of course this is KAI but in US. May be Sal spoke to wrong people? This seems strange for me - they won't sell to US? This make no sence. Russian selling rocket engins to US, but Japan not selling steel? For what reason - not to get dollars?

I got ZDP myself without any problem and I do not know why Sal or anybody else can not get it also and it does not make sence for Spyderco anyway because big part of their knives made by G-Sakai anyway.

Thanks, Vassili.

I do not know many of the particulars. Sal Glesser or Matt Connable would be someone to call.

 

[nozh2002]

I do not know many of the particulars. Sal Glesser or Matt Connable would be someone to call.

Sure, without this we can not blame Japan for not selling this original and unique steel to US (and in same time blaming tham for copying - it is so ironic!).

The point is why there is no US steel similar to ZDP189 and SRS15. And may be Crucible start making something similar.

Thanks, Vassili.

 

[Larrin]

Sure, without this we can not blame Japan for not selling this original and unique steel to US (and in same time blaming tham for copying - it is so ironic!).

The specific copying I'm talking about is Cowry-X and ZDP-189.

The point is why there is no US steel similar to ZDP189 and SRS15. And may be Crucible start making something similar.

Thanks, Vassili.

You could call Crucible and ask them why they're not making a similar steel, I mean, that might be the fastest way to find out.

 

[Cliff Stamp]

Hopefully Crucible doesn't share the same viewpoint. Competion among steel manufacturers on steels of the same class will lead to rapid evolution of that class of steels.

As for Crucibles 420, they offer 420XL as a holder block steel, do you really want to argue that is the same mystery stainless / 420 steel you see on the no-name knives.

The reason why ZDP-189 isn't more well used is lack of availability and price. It isn't a performance issue and why would you every argue as a knife user or maker that isn't where you would want a US steel manufacturer to focus and let imports dominate.

If ZDP-189 does offer superior performance, then even if only one company was using it in one knife, would it not be your goal as a maker to see that made available to your customers instead of settling for what you were given. As a knife user I know it would be what I requested.

-Cliff

 

[nozh2002]

The specific copying I'm talking about is Cowry-X and ZDP-189.

What is original steel which was copyed by ZDP189 and CovryX?

Thanks, Vassili.

 

[Larrin]

What is original steel which was copyed by ZDP189 and CovryX?

Thanks, Vassili.

I didn't try to imply that there was an original steel, though there might have been, I don't know. Obviously somebody was copying somebody if there are two names for very similar steels.

 

[HoB]

I didn't try to imply that there was an original steel, though there might have been, I don't know. Obviously somebody was copying somebody if there are two names for very similar steels.

You are not serious, are you?
A)God, there are so many examples of similar steels or even the same steel going by different names that there are entire handbooks published in many countries and languages devoted to keeping the naming straight. That includes America as well so clearly this indicates copycats the world over. I assume you know that there are at least three differnt "official" steel naming schemes in the US alone?
B) How do you know that they are very similar? Have you tested them? YOU CAN NOT GO SIMPLY BY COMPOSITION!!!! Not to mention that you don't even have information about the composition, so you are really making this up. Claiming that any steel is "very similar" to one of which only the carbon and Cr content is known is a stretch .

My only point is that Crucible doesn't have a need to make a steel to compete with ZDP if their current steels already outsell it.

Mmmh, that was GMs opinion as well, when the first Toyotas entered the western markets.....one would think, people learn from history .

 

[Larrin]

You are not serious, are you?
A)God, there are so many examples of similar steels or even the same steel going by different names that there are entire handbooks published in many countries and languages devoted to keeping the naming straight. That includes America as well so clearly this indicates copycats the world over. I assume you know that there are at least three differnt "official" steel naming schemes in the US alone?
B) How do you know that they are very similar? Have you tested them? YOU CAN NOT GO SIMPLY BY COMPOSITION!!!! Not to mention that you don't even have information about the composition, so you are really making this up. Claiming that any steel is "very similar" to one of which only the carbon and Cr content is known is a stretch .

Yes, I am serious. Are you saying they're completely different steels? You have to admit, if anything, that they follow very similar principles, a high hardness stainless, with the same amount of carbon and chromium.

Mmmh, that was GMs opinion as well, when the first Toyotas entered the western markets.....one would think, people learn from history .

Since ZDP-189 is very expensive and hard to get, whereas Toyota was much cheaper than American cars, I don't think it's a fair comparison.

 

[nozh2002]

Since ZDP-189 is very expensive and hard to get, whereas Toyota was much cheaper than American cars, I don't think it's a fair comparison.

ZDP189 is not very expensive. Thanks to Sal - he is first who makes it awailable. And when S30V just hit the market - prices were similar. And on my experience CPM 10V harder to get and much more costly. When more ZDP189 knives will be awailable, then it will be even chaeper. First W&H was about $700 (Spyderco introduces ZDP for $70).

I think we are on the next stage. Chaep knives from Japan already let them to come to the market. Now same as Toyota start delivering superior quality for similar price, Japanese knifemakers starts delivering ZDP189 knives.

Thanks, Vassili.

 

[DaveH]

Since ZDP-189 is very expensive and hard to get, whereas Toyota was much cheaper than American cars, I don't think it's a fair comparison.

I think his point was about preserving market share. Price is not the direct issue and doesn't change the "lack of" lessened learned.

 

[drano]

This seems strange for me - they won't sell to US? This make no sence. Russian selling heavy rocket engines to US, US selling superomputers to Russia, but Japan not selling cuttlery steel to US? For what reason - not to get US dollars?

what makes you think they WANT US dollars?

mabey your not familar with a little automobile called the Nissan Skyline.
not a single one of these land-speed breakers have ever, or will ever legitimately reach american shores.

the japanese are funny like that.

 

[Satrang]

The reason you do not see much ZDP 189 in the US market is Hitachi has very little capacity to produce this grade in any volume. Crucible has nearly 10 times the powder capacity of Hitachi. ZDP 189 is a very small part of Hitachi's offerings. Combine that with low capacity and you have very little material available to anyone. Hitachi is selling all they want at the price they want so their interest in expanding will be low. Economics 101.

 

[tsdevanna]

Cliff -
Our 420XL is not a holder block steel -it is a premium quality mold steel used in molds where excellent finish and corrosion reisitance are required.

Also, your comment about Crucible being new to making knife steels is off the mark. We are a specialty steel company that has been in business for over 100 years - lets get real !

 

[Cliff Stamp]

Our 420XL is not a holder block steel -it is a premium quality mold steel ...

Thanks for the clearification.

Also, your comment about Crucible being new to making knife steels is off the mark. We are a specialty steel company that has been in business for over 100 years - lets get real !

According to Barber, S30V was designed specifically for the knife industry unlike S60/S90V. S30V is very new compared to the Sandvik knife specific steels. Again not speaking of steels which are used in knives because that basically includes everything from rusty nails to airplane turbines, but steels designed specifically for knives based on research done to maximize the properties of the steel for that application specifically. In the context to the above this is obviously the "high end" steels. Now if you have actually been doing knife specific research in steels for the last 100 years then I would of course be interested in the published papers.

-Cliff

 

[Larrin]

According to Barber, S30V was designed specifically for the knife industry unlike S60/S90V. S30V is very new compared to the Sandvik knife specific steels. Again not speaking of steels which are used in knives because that basically includes everything from rusty nails to airplane turbines, but steels designed specifically for knives based on research done to maximize the properties of the steel for that application specifically. In the context to the above this is obviously the "high end" steels. Now if you have actually been doing knife specific research in steels for the last 100 years then I would of course be interested in the published papers.

-Cliff

It could be difficult to sell steel to a knife company/maker if no research was done as to the specifics of knifemaking. Crucible was making 425 for Buck for a long time, and probably other knife steels before that. My guess is there is lots of reasearch done by Crucible that is never published, where would it be published, and for what reason? Failure analysis for X company which tells us Y about the steel or its design and manufacture/heat treatment has no reason for being published.

 

[Cliff Stamp]

...where would it be published, and for what reason?

In materials journals of course. The reasons for publishing are many which is why there are such articles from the steel manufacturers who have been making knife steels for a long time. There are articles on the razor blade steels for example in Swedish journals which explore such topics as the dissolution of alloy during austenization and the resulting effect on carbide type (the carbides switch types as chromium is dissolved), carbide volume, austenite composition as a function of temperature and time.

-Cliff

 

[St.Peter's knife]

nozh2002: ZDP189 is not very expensive... When more ZDP189 knives will be awailable, then it will be even chaeper.

I would like to see my favorite knife brands using ZDP189 steel.
It will be very nice to have your favorite knife with one super sharp and super strong blade.
:thumbup:

 

[nozh2002]

Cliff -
Our 420XL is not a holder block steel -it is a premium quality mold steel used in molds where excellent finish and corrosion reisitance are required.

Also, your comment about Crucible being new to making knife steels is off the mark. We are a specialty steel company that has been in business for over 100 years - lets get real !

OK you are from Crucible!

May be you answer on major question of this thread (420 issue is kindon sideline) - will you make something like ZDP189and SRS15 for knifemakers?

Thanks, Vassili.

 

[nozh2002]

...Hitachi is selling all they want at the price they want so their interest in expanding will be low. Economics 101...

What an opportunity for Crucible! While Yasuki Speciality Steel can not deliver quite enough steel? Crucile can make some money on this big demand (at least at knifemaking bussiness). Economics 101, also...

Thanks, Vassili

 

[tsdevanna]

vassili,
Be patient.