CPM 3V. Is it the perfect steel?

[Jerry Hossom]

It was and is 62HRC. By the way, mr. Hossom's knives, a lot of them are fine examples of CPM 3V used for light/medium cutting knives. Not necessarily .25" thick choppers.

Well..., I'm not sure you could say my knives are only for light/medium cutting, regardless of the steel I use. The Spyderco Forester in 0.200" N690Co got pretty good marks on chopping. 3V might have done better, but not by a whole lot. My custom version of the same knife using .187" or less does well in the field with military people who don't tolerate mediocre.

I'm testing several new high toughness steels right now, but Z-Wear is not among them. In fact I'd never heard of it before I read this thread. I will observe however that their chart doesn't show it in the same league as 3V. It shows toughness about twice A2. 3V is about 7-8 times tougher than A2. Looking at the composition, while it should gain some added wear resistance from the Tungsten, it will likely not have the same fine grain as 3V and may well be more susceptible to corrosion due to the added carbon, which will increase the Chromium carbides and reduce free Chrome. The steels I'm looking at are similar to this in many respects. I don't know what the 3V patent covers, but it really is a special steel in many respects. Is it perfect? Nothing is. It tried to be when Crucible first set out to make S30V, but they sure FUBAR'd that one.

I can say this, and it may sound strange, but machinability is an important issue in these steels. I informed one company this week that I won't be using their steel on big knives because the high Tungsten level makes it just too tough to work and finish. That's why I don't work with CPM-M4. Unless the gain in practical use is significant there is simply no way to justify increading the amount of work needed to finish a knife by 100%. In user related terms that's also important. If you think sharpening some of the present high performance steels is difficult, wait 'til you try sharpening some of the Tungsten steels.

A lot of these discussions tend to become more academic than practical. Steels, and especially knife steels, are a balance of qualities that serve their intended purposes. In making knives of these steels, design and fabrication of the knife, particularly its edge geometry, are part of the steel equation that simply can't be measured in any practical sense. Is N690Co a super steel? Not by a long shot. It's a nice, clean, crucible stainless steel that when given the proper edge will serve long and well, as shown in a number of tests of the Spyderco Forester (it's no longer being made so I'm not selling anything here). What that knife had that made the steel perform well was a heavy and wide convex edge well suited to chopping while helping to protect the steel from chipping as might have occurred with a finer edge. Similarly, a few years ago I made a machete out of 154CM, which was returned a couple years later for sharpening. It had a couple small chips in the edge. I was perplexed by this because it had the same edge as the Forester and that shouldn't have happened in normal use. When I asked the machete owner how the chips happened, he told me he accidentally hit a fire hydrant with it. When I asked him how the second chip happened, he said, "I hit it twice". 154CM, a 50+ year old stainless steel.

Don't get too hung up on the nuances of steel. What matters most is how it works in the knife for doing what you need to do. Don't get pissed off if it's hard to sharpen when you asked for a steel with uber edge holding ability. Don't think poorly of stainless, then be shocked at what happens when you forget and leave your wet tool steel blade in the sheath overnight. Think about what you want the knife to do and get that knife in a steel that gives you the qualities you want for those tasks, but don't plan to slice tomatoes, cleave bone and chop hardwood logs with the same knife, regardless of the steel it uses. And above all, don't ask for a big ass chopper with 1/4" steel then complain it weighs too much to haul around or a 1/4" fighter that gets you killed because it moves too slow.

Just some thoughts.

 

[J. Rosa]

Good stuff Jerry. I'm curious as to what steels you are currently testing and if there are any significant findings. Gator the z wear will cost me about 16.00 usd per lb. They only have some in .304 thickness currently so I will have to machine it down a bit if I try it. They can roll more in thinner stock if demand is there. They seem to have several people that we're with crucible at some point in time working there and everyone seems nice.

 

[Brian Sargent]

Well..., I'm not sure you could say my knives are only for light/medium cutting, regardless of the steel I use. The Spyderco Forester in 0.200" N690Co got pretty good marks on chopping. 3V might have done better, but not by a whole lot. My custom version of the same knife using .187" or less does well in the field with military people who don't tolerate mediocre.

I'm testing several new high toughness steels right now, but Z-Wear is not among them. In fact I'd never heard of it before I read this thread. I will observe however that their chart doesn't show it in the same league as 3V. It shows toughness about twice A2. 3V is about 7-8 times tougher than A2. Looking at the composition, while it should gain some added wear resistance from the Tungsten, it will likely not have the same fine grain as 3V and may well be more susceptible to corrosion due to the added carbon, which will increase the Chromium carbides and reduce free Chrome. The steels I'm looking at are similar to this in many respects. I don't know what the 3V patent covers, but it really is a special steel in many respects. Is it perfect? Nothing is. It tried to be when Crucible first set out to make S30V, but they sure FUBAR'd that one.

I can say this, and it may sound strange, but machinability is an important issue in these steels. I informed one company this week that I won't be using their steel on big knives because the high Tungsten level makes it just too tough to work and finish. That's why I don't work with CPM-M4. Unless the gain in practical use is significant there is simply no way to justify increading the amount of work needed to finish a knife by 100%. In user related terms that's also important. If you think sharpening some of the present high performance steels is difficult, wait 'til you try sharpening some of the Tungsten steels.

A lot of these discussions tend to become more academic than practical. Steels, and especially knife steels, are a balance of qualities that serve their intended purposes. In making knives of these steels, design and fabrication of the knife, particularly its edge geometry, are part of the steel equation that simply can't be measured in any practical sense. Is N690Co a super steel? Not by a long shot. It's a nice, clean, crucible stainless steel that when given the proper edge will serve long and well, as shown in a number of tests of the Spyderco Forester (it's no longer being made so I'm not selling anything here). What that knife had that made the steel perform well was a heavy and wide convex edge well suited to chopping while helping to protect the steel from chipping as might have occurred with a finer edge. Similarly, a few years ago I made a machete out of 154CM, which was returned a couple years later for sharpening. It had a couple small chips in the edge. I was perplexed by this because it had the same edge as the Forester and that shouldn't have happened in normal use. When I asked the machete owner how the chips happened, he told me he accidentally hit a fire hydrant with it. When I asked him how the second chip happened, he said, "I hit it twice". 154CM, a 50+ year old stainless steel.

Don't get too hung up on the nuances of steel. What matters most is how it works in the knife for doing what you need to do. Don't get pissed off if it's hard to sharpen when you asked for a steel with uber edge holding ability. Don't think poorly of stainless, then be shocked at what happens when you forget and leave your wet tool steel blade in the sheath overnight. Think about what you want the knife to do and get that knife in a steel that gives you the qualities you want for those tasks, but don't plan to slice tomatoes, cleave bone and chop hardwood logs with the same knife, regardless of the steel it uses. And above all, don't ask for a big ass chopper with 1/4" steel then complain it weighs too much to haul around or a 1/4" fighter that gets you killed because it moves too slow.

Just some thoughts.

Had to quote it and gotta love it Jerry ! :thumbup:

 

[bld522]

http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showpost.php?p=8917981&postcount=41

Bookmarked. I suspect I'll be quoting this post quite often. :thumbup:

 

[Gator97]

Well..., I'm not sure you could say my knives are only for light/medium cutting, regardless of the steel I use.

Not at all, but quite a few of them are I'd say slim/slender, yeah they can take a lot of abuse, but why...

I can say this, and it may sound strange, but machinability is an important issue in these steels.

I sure know that. Most of the makers refuse to work on high vanadium/tungsten content steels exactly because of that.

A lot of these discussions tend to become more academic than practical. Steels, and especially knife steels, are a balance of qualities that serve their intended purposes. In making knives of these steels, design and fabrication of the knife, particularly its edge geometry, are part of the steel equation that simply can't be measured in any practical sense.

I'm not quite sure I understand this part. If one has the same 40 inclusive edge on all the knives, regardless the steel and HT, then yes it is much more of a theory what one steel can do and another can't, or see/feel practical difference. On the other hand, if I want high performance cutter or heavy duty chopper things become a lot more practical. There are not that many alloys that can sustain 5 per side edge and stay sharp for a good work session, or match CPM 3V/INFI for heavy duty use.

Don't get too hung up on the nuances of steel. What matters most is how it works in the knife for doing what you need to do.

Well, I do tend to pick exotic steels, but mainly based on the requirements I come up with. Not that I need it most of the time, but it's interesting, and besides after using a knife that could hold the edge for hours with let's say 10 per side edge, I don't want to go back to the edge twice as thick from lesser performance alloy, no motivation.

 

[Jerry Hossom]

1. Why? Because they don't have to be heavy to be useful for heavy duty work. For chopping, length will buy you more than weight. Slim and slender is what the fighters I make must be. Choppers and combat knives can be thicker but don't need to be heavier than is necessary to accomplish the job, especially for people who are carrying them in the field, which is where many of my knives are as I type this.

2. Agreed

3. Who cares if it's 5 degrees per side? What matters is that it does the job efficiently and is durable in the process. 5 degrees, 10 degrees, whatever, is what I was referring to as academically interesting but not necessarily relevant. Most people don't have the means of applying such an edge or knowing the precise angle if they did. As for a high performance chopper. I can put an edge on a $20 Ontario machete that will likely "outchop" any 9" chopper you own in any steel made (CPM-M4 Competition Chopper excepted but only if you're very strong). And I can resharpen it on a river rock. And since it only weighs 20 oz. it's probably about the same weight as your 1/4" thick chopper. And I can use it to cut grasses and brush with ease. And if I need such, it's a very effective and intimidating weapon. And, I could go on. In very real terms that's one hell of a knife! It's 1095 steel, Rc53/54. Perfect for the job. If you're talking about slicing tomato skins, possibly that 5 degree angle in super steel is nice - until you drop it on its fine point in the sink or your sweet wife tosses it in the dish washer. Then 5 degrees becomes academic again.

4. If an edge "twice as thick" does the job, holds up under challenging conditions, can take severe abuse, is easier to sharpen, and costs a whole lot less, then it might well be JUST the right steel for MOST of the people reading this. If it's also stainless that's good too; corrosion can dull a knife in a day or two, especially if the edge isn't polished.

The fact is, most people don't baby their knives. They use and abuse them, and generally only sharpen them after they are too dull to cut butter. If a knife gets a hunter through a deer season without sharpening, it's a good knife in good steel. Unless you're splitting the briskets most knives in CPM-154 will do that. If it's a wild pig you'll probably only get through one because of all the dirt and debris in the hide. Even so, a quick touch up, at any angle, will get you through the next one. 3V will do better. If you have to dig a rock out of the ground, you should be able to do so. Most steels can, 3V does. These are not academic issues; they are what knives do, just as choppers chop, fighters fight and combat knives do combat things, and six months later very few of them have an edge that looks much like the one that came from the maker. For those who are adept at sharpening, the situation improves but it's not likely a 5 or 10 degree perfection. Hopefully, it's done on a belt sander and is convex perfection instead.

Now, here's a caveat I can't speak to. If it's a folder or a whittler, I doubt my knowledge of steels is as useful because the needs and dynamics are largely different from the knives I make and from the applications I know. That said the Retribution folder I designed for Ontario got pretty good marks and that was a heavy edge. I also don't know much about kitchen knives beyond the fact I use them everyday. I know high tech kitchen knives are all the rage right now, but I can't afford one.

And 5. There are no angles on a convex edge.

 

[Jerry Hossom]

While I was writing all that drivel, I wandered a bit off topic and apologize. Steel matters but not as much as most think, and other attributes of a knife can accomodate certain weaknesses in steels, as in the case of that Ontario machete. Would the same machete in 3V be a better tool? Sure, but you'll play hell sharpening it on a river rock. In a machete with the proper edge almost any steel might work fine. But all steels fail, the differences are how they fail and how easily. For example, there is no doubt that CPM-M4 is a great steel. It's hard, tough and wears forever. but on several CPM-M4 competition blades, made and used by some of the top competitors in professional cutting competitions, the edges have bent badly upon hitting the side of a knot or just a bad hit on hard wood. Those weren't sharpenable chips in the edge; they needed regrinding to bring them back to true. 3V, if given the same thin edge would have failed in the same way. Other steels would have chipped, some would have failed entirely from a crack forming at the point of deformation. But those are very fine edges with no allowance for any frailties in the steel, and the tests are brutal.

It's my belief, and this probably accounts for some of my cynicism about steels, that the convex edge is like the Colt Peacmaker; it's a great equalizer - reducing the stresses that cause some steels to fail. Edges can be thicker and the effective included angle larger and still cut efficiently. Edge thickness matters, especially in hard use knives. It prevents bending in tough steel and chipping in steels that aren't tough. All steels are one or the other. The best steels are those which ride the fine line between bending and chipping. Someone mentioned CPM-1V. It's really tough stuff. I tested it and still have a bunch. Almost as tough as S7, more wear resistance than A2, but even at Rc58 it bends like a pretzel and IMO is completely useless in a knife blade. Wait a minute, if you can bend 1V at Rc58, 3V at Rc61 and CPM-M4 at Rc62/63 what is hardness actually measuring? Isn't it a measure of deformation? Yes it is, but in knife edges the normal rules tend not to work all the time. That's why looking at the charts, the composition, the various other data that are available on all these steels can be very misleading. What matters is how it works in the knife you want to use.

 

[bld522]

Wow! Thanks again, Jerry. This thread is becoming a classic! :thumbup:

.

 

[Gator97]

3. Who cares if it's 5 degrees per side? What matters is that it does the job efficiently and is durable in the process. 5 degrees, 10 degrees, whatever, is what I was referring to as academically interesting but not necessarily relevant.

I do, and exactly for the reason you mention above - "efficiency"
That 5 deg. isn't there for the number's sake, it make s a knife more efficient cutter, which is a primary job a knife is supposed to perform.

Most people don't have the means of applying such an edge or knowing the precise angle if they did.

Yes, but most of the people can tell sharp knife from a dull one, thick edge from thin, etc.

As for a high performance chopper. I can put an edge on a $20 Ontario machete that will likely "outchop" any 9" chopper you own in any steel made (CPM-M4 Competition Chopper excepted but only if you're very strong).

I don't doubt, or argue that. However, for academical reasons and fairness as well, when comparing steels, we should assume identical knives. And then, I am sure as a maker you can make better steel show its merits. Other than that, it isn't steel vs. steel in different knives, just different geometries/edges whatever else..

4. If an edge "twice as thick" does the job, holds up under challenging conditions, can take severe abuse, is easier to sharpen, and costs a whole lot less, then it might well be JUST the right steel for MOST of the people reading this. If it's also stainless that's good too; corrosion can dull a knife in a day or two, especially if the edge isn't polished.

"Does the job" omits the efficiency criteria you mentioned above, that twice as thick edge might be inadequate and that's it.
And CPM 3V isn't mass market steel, the OP was about perfect/high end/super steels, etc. Once you bring up "costs whole lot less", none of the steels discussed in this thread really fit that criteria, so I have no argument there.

The fact is, most people don't baby their knives. They use and abuse them, and generally only sharpen them after they are too dull to cut butter.

I sharpen quite a few knives for the people around me and I know first hand how they get abused. I have a whole section on my side with damaged edge micrographs I don't think it's ok or unavoidable in many cases. Anyway, those types of knife users couldn't care less whether the knife was made out of CPM 3V or some junk.

And 5. There are no angles on a convex edge.

? Mathematically and practically there is an angle, I'm not sure what are you referring to, there is no V type angle?

 

[Brian Sargent]

I adjust my edges depending how I want the edge to cut a given material.

I don't know how to determine the geometry of that curve.

Yes , a tougher more abrasion resistant steel in the same knife with the same edge should cut the same materials for a longer amount of time than a steel that is less tough and not as abrasion resistant but has an identical edge.

Does this actually happen? ... two exact knives with the same exact edges ...

The job isn't always finished with the cut ... maintenance should be figured into efficiency.

If I get some really nice cuts that produces a lot of work with a thin edge is it worth the time to work on the edge to fix the damage that could have been avoided with a slightly thicker edge.

It is true that most people don't really care what the type of steel is that they use ... that is why IMO edge geometry and ease of sharpening is most important in general.

I've never understood where the angle is in a curve.

 

[hardheart]

I believe it is the arctangent of the derivative.

Identical knives with different steels such as the Spyderco Military, BM 710, Kershaw Blur, and more customs than I could hope to list can all be given the exact same edge by the maker, or by a user with the proper tools.

The idea would be to use a steel that does not produce a lot of repair work with a thin edge. If steel and hardness was unimportant than makers would not waste time, money, and consumables on something like 3V or M4 and shipping to the Bos shop for heat treatment. Different steels have different yield, tensile, and compressive strengths; hardness testing with a diamond indenter only tells part of the story. Geometry will determine how much force is required to move a piece of steel in the elastic range. Hardness then comes into play in plastic deformation, and affects how much force is needed for permanent changes, and what kind of change you end up with.

 

[Jerry Hossom]

Gator, I'll just jump on just one of your points and that's the comparison of the machete with a more conventional 1/4" thick chopper. You brought up my knives as being suitable only for light and medium duty work. (That's what dragged me into this mess where I wish I weren't) The assumption was they were too light. The machete was designed and is used all over the world for cutting grasses and brush. Machetes are lightweight and usually made of cheap steel. As they come from the factory they have a lousy edge. Even so, that lightweight blade in lousy steel will outchop most of the heavier blades you're talking about in the best steels available IF it's given the proper edge for the job. That edge in lousy steel will hold up and continue chopping well after many better steels with finer edges will need to go back to that $300 sharpening system for resharpening and/or repair. I cited the example of the M4 competition blades with their very fine edges.

I suspect our disconnect is in what we each view is "cutting" and the conditions under which that cutting is performed. I think we may also have a disconnect is edge philosophy, convex versus fixed angle. I confess I don't know why convex edges cut as well as they do. I have some thoughts on the matter, but they cut amazingly well, especially in hard materials, well after they no longer shave. Similarly, some years ago Talonite was being used in a number of small knives and folders. Many people observed that long after the edge would no longer shave the knife would still "cut" well. Some speculated it was the natural lubricity of the Cobalt, but nobody really knew why those blades cut as well as they did. Same with convex edges; competition cutters use convex edges.

The points I was making were based on using knives that may be required to endure some punishment, which is why you might be interested in using a high performance steel to start with. If you need toughness, as is provided by 3V, you may not need as much toughness as you think if the edge is designed to accommodate those cutting/chopping conditions where toughness might be considered an issue. It isn't much of an issue in fine cutting of softer materials. Wear resistance might be an issue with those materials, but with harder materials and greater applied forces what might be seen as failure in edge holding could well be a toughness issue rather than abrasive or adhesive wear, because of microchipping. Edge deformation can manifest itself as a failure in edge holding. Fine edges in cheap steels tend to roll when they encounter hard materials. That can also happen with expensive and very tough steels as well if they are thin and hit a hard object at an angle. 3V will bend. M4 will bend. Less tough steels will chip. The best steels are those that resist both deformation and brittleness, but it's a very fine line between the two. A heavier convex edge broadens that line to accomodate steels that are father on one side or the other. Fine cutting is less rigorous, and likely favors wear resistance over toughness. Still, a chicken bone might be a problem.

Special operations soldiers prefer stainless steels. Strider, Reeves, and Spartan Blades make the best production combat knives in the world. They are all S30V. CPM-154 would probably work as well with somewhat less wear resistance. Cutting is what they do with their knives and they're required to cut whatever needs to be cut, whether cloth, hard wood, brass buttons or mild steel. That falls within MY definition of "cutting". True story: I was in NYC once hanging out with some knife nuts in a bar. It was late, we'd all had a few and the subject of steels came up. (Never talk steels with people who've had too much to drink.) As often happens here, S30V came up and was being roundly bashed for being brittle and everyone was arguing their opinion of it and why such and such a steel was better. As this went on I finally got to the point where the combined affects of beer and frustration got the best of me. One of the guys at the table had a brand new $600+ Strider Custom Folder; I asked to borrow it and invited him to follow me. We went into the hallway next to the restrooms where there were a number of brass coat hooks on the wall. I used his $600+ Strider Folder to chop one of those coat hooks in two, returned his folder and went back to my beer. Brittle steel, convex edge, no damage. I'm sure there were areas on that edge that would no longer shave and I resharpened the knife for the guy who had taken quite a long time to recover from shock, but the point is that performance and cutting is defined by a lot of things of which steel is just one, and one which might be overrated.

When I make a knife I always assume the edge will encounter hard and sometimes excessively hard materials, regardless of the steel I use. 3V is my favorite, because I think it's a great balance of toughness, wear resistance, and can take an amazingly sharp edge, but I also give it an edge that will deal with whatever it encounters. Your 5 degree edge on a heavy blade, in any steel, will probably lose the fire hydrant competition and may not even pass the coat hook test.

The convex edge is (I think) a parabola that would be pretty difficult to measure, and to the best of my knowledge never has been.

 

[Gator97]

The job isn't always finished with the cut ... maintenance should be figured into efficiency.
...
It is true that most people don't really care what the type of steel is that they use ... that is why IMO edge geometry and ease of sharpening is most important in general.

Agreed 100%. However, most of the time "ease of maintenance" is equaled to ease of sharpening, and I don't think that's the whole picture. I sure don't mind easy to sharpen steel, but not at the cost of edge durability and performance. In other words, if the knife requires 2-3 sharpenings to get through a day's work, I think it's not worth it. If it forces me to have thick edge, making cutting noticeably more difficult then it's not worth it.
And a thicker edge doesn't always solve durability problems, at least when cutting matters, you have to use more force to make the same cut and more force can easily translate into more edge deformation/damage.

Yes, true, most of the people don't care what steel is used in their knife, but it is also true, most of the people never sharpen their knives and don't care about edge angles and sharpening either. Hell, most of the people don't even care about their knives, once it gets dull/old just throw it away. I just don't think that's the baseline for the topic in this thread.

 

[Gator97]

You brought up my knives as being suitable only for light and medium duty work. (That's what dragged me into this mess where I wish I weren't) The assumption was they were too light.

I didn't say, or mean "they're good only for light/medium work". My point was 5"-7", slim knives perform better for light/medium work and just because CPM 3V steel has a reputation of tough steel doesn't mean it is lacking in wear resistance department, hence it(CPM 3V) is a very good choice for purely cutting jobs.
Basically my point was very different from what the argument became. I hope this makes it clear.

P.S. Convex edge is an intersection of two curves, at least for the edge sharp enough And that is measurable

 

[The Mastiff]

I just noticed that Z-wear is a PM version of Vascowear/cruware. I'm not sure just how much of a difference the PM procedure will make but even in the ingot form the original vascowear( no longer made), and crucible's version of Cruware are excellent knife steels.

Makers don't like them as they are tough to grind, not stainless, and not regularly in demand but it does make really great knives and does RC 62 without getting chippy. It's an upgrade from D2 with better wear resistance and better toughness.

I've wanted to try a PM version of it for a while. In the mean time Niagara has Cruware in stock ready for delivery last I checked.

 

[Jerry Hossom]

I didn't say, or mean "they're good only for light/medium work".

I must have misread this part.

By the way, mr. Hossom's knives, a lot of them are fine examples of CPM 3V used for light/medium cutting knives. Not necessarily .25" thick choppers.

The Spyderco collaboration knives were indeed choppers and have gotten pretty high marks in reviews, even the 6" and 7-1/2" models. I make the same knives in 3V as well as CPM Stainless which are better. In all, the edge thickness before sharpening is about 0.040" which is then convexed about 1/8" up the blade. I've no clue what that angle might be since it's determined by both the angle at which the blade is held and the tension on the abrasive belt. On my knives I do this on a rotary platen which gives me more control of the shape of the curve, but the angle is still a mystery. Anecdotally , that edge which is what I wanted used on the Spyderco knives greatly troubled them because it's the antithesis of their normal edges, so they called it the "Hossom Edge" on the box as a sort of disclaimer. It's not my edge of course, it's used by most knifemakers, but it worked well for the duties assigned in the steel used and I found the label amusing. The steel most certainly would not have done as well for heavy chopping with very fine edge, nor would 3V for that matter. If the edge is too fine it will distort. That's why it's not used in professional cutting competitions. And I might add, that distortion which can occur in extremely fine edges with 3V and has happened with M4 as well when chopping hard materials is not correctable with sharpening. It's a significant distortion of the edge alignment.

Regardless, we agree that 3V is an excellent steel, but like all steels even it and M4 have an achilles heel that bears mentioning.

 

[stabber]

Heat treating of Whatever steel has a Major Factor in the Final product!
10 Makers can use the same exact steel, All will somewhat be different than the Others

 

[Justin King]

I think the best quality of 3v comes from its toughness allowing it to be ground to a thinner edge without risk of chipping, respective of use. This is as true for a knife with a 3" blade as it is with a 10" blade, the thinner the edge, the better it will cut.
If the maker is not grinding close the extremities of edge geometry, and/or your cutting is limited to light duty then there is probably little to be gained with this steel over s30v or s35vn, and the trade off in corrosion resistance then makes it a no-brainer.

 

[Jerry Hossom]

Justin, I didn't say it couldn't be ground thinner, but depending on the application there are limits where plastic deformation becomes an issue. It's a matter of how close to the limit you care to go, and those limits are usually quite different for 3" blades compared with 10" blades. You rarely chop wood with a 3" blade, and you seldom clean quail with a 10" blade. I prefer that edge geometry as well as steel be suited to the application, and shaped accordingly. Swords are not light duty blades. I've made quite a few, and several have been rigorously tested. In one instance a 24" Espada severed a beef leg, 9" of flesh and 3" of bone, on a diagonal cut. The edge was slightly flattened in an area about 1/4" long. Had it been thin, it would have substantially deformed due to the lateral stress and the sword ruined. It cut well enough with a heavier edge.

 

[Alpha Knife Supply]

Don't get too hung up on the nuances of steel. What matters most is how it works in the knife for doing what you need to do. Don't get pissed off if it's hard to sharpen when you asked for a steel with uber edge holding ability. Don't think poorly of stainless, then be shocked at what happens when you forget and leave your wet tool steel blade in the sheath overnight. Think about what you want the knife to do and get that knife in a steel that gives you the qualities you want for those tasks, but don't plan to slice tomatoes, cleave bone and chop hardwood logs with the same knife, regardless of the steel it uses. And above all, don't ask for a big ass chopper with 1/4" steel then complain it weighs too much to haul around or a 1/4" fighter that gets you killed because it moves too slow.

This was too good not to quote. I've missed your posts Jerry!

jaymeister99, I think if you personally test 3V your opinion of its edge holding will change. I tested 3V after reading a post by Jerry. It has since become my favorite steel.