CPM-M4 vs CTS-20CP/CPM-S90V

Ankerson said:
I think it is, likely hard to get over here.
Click to expand...

A U.S. dealer has some of lionsteels med. chopper using that steel this knife is also another Molletta design done by kniferesearch , I am surprised they can keep them in stock
 
Hi Gunsnknives,

Yes, Gianni has been playing with it and he speaks highly of it.

Hey Jim,

I'll send a piece to you after we trest it. I'd like to get more than one opinion.

Hi Hardheart,

Don't know enough to have an opinion.

sal
 
Sal Glesser said:
Hi Gunsnknives,

Yes, Gianni has been playing with it and he speaks highly of it.

Hey Jim,

I'll send a piece to you after we trest it. I'd like to get more than one opinion.

Hi Hardheart,

Don't know enough to have an opinion.

sal
Click to expand...


Hi Sal,

Sounds good, let me know when you send it out. :thumbup:


Jim
 
Sal Glesser said:
But CPM-M4 is the only steel that wins Blade Sports. I mean seriously, Blade Magazine tries to downplay it, but *every* knife in the top 10 for the last several years is CPM-M4.
Click to expand...

That's mostly because of Warren Osbourne, Gayle Bradley and Scott Devanna doing their testing at Warren's house. Those three worked there butts off to refine the requirements, even edge geometry a thou as a time.
Click to expand...

But Warren and Gayle did a LOT of testing with many different supersteels, and ended up with CPM-M4. Probably because CPM-M4 is the rare steel that has incredible wear resistance *and* high toughness. S90V and 10V give up toughness in return for increased wear resistance.

As you know, since you sponsor Gayle and Jose Diaz ;), Ted Ott won this year, with another CPM-M4 blade. Shawn Scott won the 2009 Nationals, with a CPM-M4 blade made by Steve Singer (here in Austin) :) Gary Bond won the 2008 Nationals with a CPM-M4 blade...

The explanation in Blade magazine is:

"Most competitors prefer CPM-M4 tool steel because it can be ground extremely thin and still hold up to the course's wide range of cutting challenges, all while retaining a very sharp edge."​


A Crucible "comparograph" from earlier in the thread: Notice that S90V and 10V have the same, or lower, toughness than 440C. An even more interesting comparison is CPM 1V, 3V, 10V: the numbers correspond to the percentage of vandium. 1V has 1% vandium, 10V has 10% vanadium. The wear resistance increases, and the toughness drops, in direct proportion to the vanadium concentration.

So 1V and 3V are incredibly tough, but don't have the wear resistance to compete with CPM-M4. S90V and 10V have incredible wear resistance, but don't have the toughness to compete with CPM-M4:

72035bc5.jpg
 
Last edited:
Ok... I know I may be new to the thread, and I'm not trying to get in the way here, but how is the "toughness" measured? and in regards to Strength, how does something like CPM-M4 compare to other steels ...such as 5160 for toughness and strength? I'm looking for the best steel possible to make what I call combat/utility blades for soldiers. that being the case I am literally trying to find the toughest/strongest blade steel I can find... preferrable stain resistant and preferrable still holds at least a respectable edge, all the while being able to resharpen in the field ...thoughts?
 
rustyrazor, your preferences are all quite subjective. If there was one answer, every maker would use that steel. The reality is we all have different preferences, expectations, and uses for our knives.

My answer would be M4. I find it incredibly tough, stain resistant enough, it retains an edge quite well, and I find it very easy to sharpen. I have zero doubt that some will disagree with me...and that is the point of my first statements.
 
unit said:
Did someone claim there was a better steel for Blade Sports?
Click to expand...

The original poster asked about CPM-M4 versus S90V.

If you want a blade optimized for wear resistance, and don't need high toughness, go for S90V.
If you need a great combination of wear resistance and toughness, like the Bladesports guys do, then CPM-M4 is hard to beat.
 
rustyrazor said:
how is the "toughness" measured? and in regards to Strength, how does something like CPM-M4 compare to other steels ...such as 5160 for toughness and strength?
Click to expand...

Toughness is measured as Charpy Notch Strength -- essentially how much impact it can withstand before fracturing. It's measured in Foot/lbs or Joules.

5160 has very high toughness, although not in the same class as 3V.
 
rustyrazor said:
Ok... I know I may be new to the thread, and I'm not trying to get in the way here, but how is the "toughness" measured? and in regards to Strength, how does something like CPM-M4 compare to other steels ...such as 5160 for toughness and strength? I'm looking for the best steel possible to make what I call combat/utility blades for soldiers. that being the case I am literally trying to find the toughest/strongest blade steel I can find... preferrable stain resistant and preferrable still holds at least a respectable edge, all the while being able to resharpen in the field ...thoughts?
Click to expand...

It's hard to beat 3V and A8 for what you would want.

But something like 5160, 52100 or 1095 would work also.

Sharpening and or repairing an edge in the field would be important as you said.

For that type of use the high wear resistant steels wouldn't be a good choice because they would be very hard to deal with repairing the edge ect.

Unless one wants to carry around a belt grinder on their back.

I carried a K-BAR for almost the whole 4 years I was in the USMC back in the 80's and it did the job just fine, that was 1095.
 
Last edited:
They are using it on the new dpx hest fixed blade. I asked ryp if he planned on using it in the hest 2.0 folder and he said there will be a le of the hest folder with it. They say its an improved version of d2 ,increased tooughness and what not. I really like the way d2 cuts and I love my spydies!
 
I agree with the KA-bar statement as I carried one a fair bit too and they have a pretty tough blade that holds up well, though the handle strenghth leaves a bit to be desired. I guess if I had to list the qualities I needed in my steel in order from most important to least would be as follows: toughness, strength then edge holding, with resharpenability and stain resistence tied to round out the group. for quite some time now I have been making my knives out of 440c partly because it has proven to be pretty well rounded in these categories and partly because I can't find a definitive reason to switch to another steel so far, as like you guys know each has trade-offs and I will only "upgrade" to another steel if it meets the requirements for being better in all areas of what I'll ask of it. Most if not all of my knives are for soldiers as well and I want to make the knife as resilient as possible to stand up to whatever abuse they can throw at it. I hope this helps, and I value each of your imput on this.
 
I think the best approach for we "steel junky's is, "all good, just different". Every steel has advantages and disadvantages for its intended purpose. Warren, Gayle and Scott extended a great deal of effort to develop the best steel for BladeSports. They are to be commended and respected for that effort.

I believe that in the future, other steels will come, win and go. People like Warren, Gayle and Scott will be the movers and shakers that we appreciate, will make it happen. That's one of the real beauties of steel and testing/competition (& steel junky's ;)) .

sal
 
I hope Mr.Osbourne doesn't mind me playing on his design...

I think this is how it should have looked coming out of the factory - Cleavers just aren't sexy enough

I'm very curious to put this through some beatings and see what M4 can do

from this...

022-XL.jpg


to this...

IMG0028.jpg


IMG0029-2.jpg


I also have a couple of Mr.Glesser's 'exotics', although I can't find any fault with the design, no need for any mods with these

007-XL.jpg


107.jpg


waiting for a couple more...a Military XHP i just bought, and a ParaMili in M390 which is supposed to be coming next year
 
Sal Glesser said:
I think the best approach for we "steel junky's is, "all good, just different". Every steel has advantages and disadvantages for its intended purpose. Warren, Gayle and Scott extended a great deal of effort to develop the best steel for BladeSports. They are to be commended and respected for that effort.

I believe that in the future, other steels will come, win and go. People like Warren, Gayle and Scott will be the movers and shakers that we appreciate, will make it happen. That's one of the real beauties of steel and testing/competition (& steel junky's ;)) .

sal
Click to expand...


Hi Sal,

Yup, Exactly. :)

I use as many different steels as I can, it's interesting how similar some of the steels really are in use, say at work.

Jim
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top