CPM S90V Spyderco Military

I asked Busse already to make Game Warden out of different steel - it was like throwing spark into gun powder - quite an experience it was. INFI is excellent steel for big knives - noss4 demonstrated this perfectly, however there are other use for knife then do ax job.

I did no see any cases on Military CPM 440V broke the blade or something. So all this cry about brittleness I did not take seriously. It is hard to imagine someone chopping concrete with Military.

Now let imagine this - some ABCD Electronics 10 years ago:
"Those new technology - DVD is so expensive, on the competitive market we rather decide for our customers not to use it but buy 10 VHS recordes for same price."

This sounds strange. I think ABCD Electronics will not exist after this. I also can say same about digital cameras, computers...

Also there is quite a bit overpriced overhyped knives in the competitive market, where same steel and everything cost way more. I think there is some room for high performing steel wich most likely will not overexceed price for that hype-knives.

Same Busse does deliver their super-tough steel INFI not for the same price as everybody else and it does not seems like they have any problem with new and old customers. So it is hard to believe for me that any producer will ave hard time selling CPM S90V and CPM S125V as well as CPM M4 etc.

I will buy Spyderco Military CPM S125V for sure when they have one available.

Well, it does not really matter. This is happening any way, because super-steel piece of knife market just go to Hitachi not Crucible. But I like to have both ZDP189 and similar CPM.

Thanks, Vassili.
 
Vassili, I don't understand why you are putting all that much emphasis on wear resistance. Wear resistance isn't the measure of all things. Put S30V and ZDP-189 into a corrosive environment and retest edgeholding. S30V will pull ahead. I would like to know what the abrasion resistance of INFI is. Without data, my guess would be that it is not anywhere close to that of S30V or D2 and leagues away from S60V and S90V, and yet it is considered an excellent steel. Personally, I would rather see a tougher steel than a more abrasion resistant steel. Because on a tougher steel you can thin the blade further.

Also, it doesn't have anything to do with new technology. Appropriate grinding media are available for decades, but it is not going to get much cheaper. The knifemarket is simply not large enough. Everyone wants a DVD player, but the knifemarket has most definitely not increased superexponentially, like the hight-tech electronic market. So technology is not going to buy you anything in this case.
 
HoB said:
Vassili, I don't understand why you are putting all that much emphasis on wear resistance. Wear resistance isn't the measure of all things. Put S30V and ZDP-189 into a corrosive environment and retest edgeholding. S30V will pull ahead. I would like to know what the abrasion resistance of INFI is. Without data, my guess would be that it is not anywhere close to that of S30V or D2 and leagues away from S60V and S90V, and yet it is considered an excellent steel. Personally, I would rather see a tougher steel than a more abrasion resistant steel. Because on a tougher steel you can thin the blade further.

Also, it doesn't have anything to do with new technology. Appropriate grinding media are available for decades, but it is not going to get much cheaper. The knifemarket is simply not large enough. Everyone wants a DVD player, but the knifemarket has most definitely not increased superexponentially, like the hight-tech electronic market. So technology is not going to buy you anything in this case.
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I am talking about edge holding on 1/2" manila rope where CPM S30V shows results better then other steels, but way behind CPM S60V (440V).

I heard many times that in theory wear resistance does not mean good edge holding etc... But as I sad before (post #17) on practice CPM S60V way better in edge holding then CPM S30V - check my test results!

Thanks, Vassili.
 
nozh2002 said:
I did no see any cases on Military CPM 440V broke the blade or something. So all this cry about brittleness I did not take seriously. It is hard to imagine someone chopping concrete with Military.
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I did not say anything about breaking blades, that depends so much on the geometry that I don't even worry about it. I mentioned specifically edge chipping. If I chip my edges in what I do, at whatever angle, then I do not want to switch to a steel that is more likely to chip than what I am already using. A friend of mine chipped my ZDP-189 blade cutting wire. Why did he cut wire? Because he is a network technician, and he does it regularly with his AUS8 blades. AUS8 falls well behind ZDP in some areas, but even with my having sharpened both knives for him, one chipped and one doesn't.

So it is hard to believe for me that any producer will ave hard time selling CPM S90V and CPM S125V as well as CPM M4 etc.
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I believe CRKT sales would suffer, the majority of Kershaw sales would suffer, Buck sales would suffer, and so on. They cannot abandon all these other steels just to switch to the most wear resistant for their entire line-up. Are they supposed to raise all their prices and lose the markets they could have spent decades targeting? Are they supposed to offer performance in a particular area that their customers just plain don't need an improvement in?

Yes, a boutique manufacturer could sell ultra wear resistant knives only, like Busse can sell only Infi. I don't see where the entire industry could survive making the same attempt. Do you think Busse sells as many Hell Razors as Buck sells 119s? But Busse does sell every knife they make, they have absolutely zero incentive to switch.

The majority of knife buyers that absolutely dwarf our segment are not going to magically develop the disposable income or sharpening skills needed for these steels, and they won't want to.

I'd probably buy an S125V knife, but I cannot think of a reason for a manufacturer to want to make it a regular part of production. There really aren't that many of us, and the success of companies like Busse is gonna be hard to accomplish. And one benefit they have is that no one else uses Infi, so they can't get into pricing competition with identical products. If someone starts to have decent sales by being the 'only provider of S125V blades' someone else will just come along to grab marketshare and reduce profits. If the knife takes abnormal effort to produce, but does not produce abnormal profit, then no one will make it.
 
hardheart said:
I did not say anything about breaking blades, that depends so much on the geometry that I don't even worry about it. I mentioned specifically edge chipping. If I chip my edges in what I do, at whatever angle, then I do not want to switch to a steel that is more likely to chip than what I am already using. A friend of mine chipped my ZDP-189 blade cutting wire. Why did he cut wire? Because he is a network technician, and he does it regularly with his AUS8 blades. AUS8 falls well behind ZDP in some areas, but even with my having sharpened both knives for him, one chipped and one doesn't.
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I am not sure why this mean that they should not use top steel on top models.

hardheart said:
I believe CRKT sales would suffer, the majority of Kershaw sales would suffer, Buck sales would suffer, and so on. They cannot abandon all these other steels just to switch to the most wear resistant for their entire line-up.
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This is powerful argument but I can not understand how it apply to what I sad, are you thinking that I want all knives to be CPM S90V? Please, read carefully my post.

hardheart said:
Are they supposed to raise all their prices and lose the markets they could have spent decades targeting? Are they supposed to offer performance in a particular area that their customers just plain don't need an improvement in?
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Again they should not! But I do not understand why are you talking about this.

hardheart said:
Yes, a boutique manufacturer could sell ultra wear resistant knives only, like Busse can sell only Infi. I don't see where the entire industry could survive making the same attempt. Do you think Busse sells as many Hell Razors as Buck sells 119s? But Busse does sell every knife they make, they have absolutely zero incentive to switch.

The majority of knife buyers that absolutely dwarf our segment are not going to magically develop the disposable income or sharpening skills needed for these steels, and they won't want to.

I'd probably buy an S125V knife, but I cannot think of a reason for a manufacturer to want to make it a regular part of production. There really aren't that many of us, and the success of companies like Busse is gonna be hard to accomplish. And one benefit they have is that no one else uses Infi, so they can't get into pricing competition with identical products. If someone starts to have decent sales by being the 'only provider of S125V blades' someone else will just come along to grab marketshare and reduce profits. If the knife takes abnormal effort to produce, but does not produce abnormal profit, then no one will make it.
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I see that you for some reason mislead youself to strange conclusion about my intention - I absolutely agree with you - this is insane.

But let return to what I am talking about - top line models. Are you agree that for top models top steel need to be used, not entry level? Will you buy such a knife?

If you say yes - I do not understand what are you arguing for.

Thanks, Vassili.
 
nozh2002 said:
I am talking about edge holding on 1/2" manila rope where CPM S30V shows results better then other steels, but way behind CPM S60V (440V).

I heard many times that in theory wear resistance does not mean good edge holding etc... But as I sad before (post #17) on practice CPM S60V way better in edge holding then CPM S30V - check my test results!

Thanks, Vassili.
Click to expand...

Well, I am sure it adds to edgeholding, but abrasion resistance is not the full story.
A) Manila rope is pretty soft, so edge stability is not as much of an issue as on harder surfaces
B) You are using a fairly conservative edge geometry where edgestability is also not as critical.

I think that on a different test, like whittling hardwood with a thinner edge geometry, those steels with extremely high carbide content will not perform nearly as well. Just my $0.02.
 
HoB said:
Well, I am sure it adds to edgeholding, but abrasion resistance is not the full story.
A) Manila rope is pretty soft, so edge stability is not as much of an issue as on harder surfaces
B) You are using a fairly conservative edge geometry where edgestability is also not as critical.

I think that on a different test, like whittling hardwood with a thinner edge geometry, those steels with extremely high carbide content will not perform nearly as well. Just my $0.02.
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Your thought better be supported by tests.

So far tests on "soft" manila rope shows different story. Well, for some steel like CPM it is soft, but for other it is not. It is same cellulose as wood fibers, I think almost woo fibers in better for test package.

The "conservative edge geometry" is simple 30 degree edge, to me it is practical and most used edge geometry and I do not see reason to came up with special geometry to make this steel fail.

Thanks, Vassili.
 
The material is not soft for one steel and hard for another. I am not talking about the hardness of the fiber, which by the way is not overly high in comparison to others such as high density PE or PP, but I was talking about the firmness of the testing media. Rope cutting of any kind will not load the edge laterally very much so it is a very specific test that simply will not challenge edge stability very much. Essentially you are performing your own version of a CATRA test and not surprisingly your results are very similar to the CATRA results that are known.

nozh2002 said:
Your thought better be supported by tests.
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Why this aggressive language, Vassili? I think I still retain the right to express my opinion without generating solid proof for everything. I am not making claims and this is not a peer reviewed journal. I am stating my opinion based on my own expriences and based on those that were shared by others on this topic. There have been several accounts of lacking edge stability at thin edge geometries on high carbide volume steels.

As for you geometry: Your geometry is perfectly acceptable, but you are not consistent with you call for performance. If you want maximum performance, you look for the best steel at a certain geometry. It is not said, or rather unlikely that the steels will show the same performance ratio that you are seeing at 30 deg include at 20 or 15 deg included. So in your call to knifemakers for more "Supersteels" why don't you call for a "Supergeometry"? Of course both calls are nonsense, what works for one person doesn't for the other. On person will cherish a 15 deg edge, the other will see only excessive chipping.

What you should be calling for is the "ideal geometry for a given steel optimized for a certain task". But seriously all of that is a bit much to ask from any knife company. You are not going to see a Toyota Camry with full carbon panels and different tire options based on temperature of the retail location as an off-the-shelf item either, even though it would make the car faster, better handling and more fuel efficient. And you know already why. The car would not sell, because the average Camry buyer wouldn't be able to afford one.
 
I heard quite a lot of Hypothesis, like that edge holding may be different on different media. As well as different steels each may have ideal angle of edge were it will outperform. Or that edge holding may not be related to wear resistance.

But until it is proven by experiment - this is just hypothesis, not even theory. So everybody can generates tons of hypothesis which all may looks very possible and reasonable. But let be scientific and follow the process. What I see is we creating some pseudo knife science - commonly accepted as a theory hypotheses without any proves. More then this it is presented as a truth.

Thanks, Vassili.
 
HoB said:
Why this aggressive language, Vassili? I think I still retain the right to express my opinion without generating solid proof for everything.
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I am sorry, I read it as you suggesting me to make more tests now with wood, while I am testing my butt off with manila rope. I reread it and see that you are not talking about this. Sorry.

I am not asking for proves, if you say that you did some tests it will be enough for me - I trust people here. I am only against rapid hypotheses generation without any testing - see my previous post.

Thanks, Vassili.

P.S. Can you give a link to CATRA results for different steel?
 
This is Phil results, not CATRA. CATRA results are not available for general public for some reason. I would not star my testing if CATRA results were available.

Thanks, Vassili.

P.S. This is Phil Wilson results from that link:

440C 360-400
VG10 500-510
S30V 550-580
S90V 750
ZDP 189 750
S125V 1200

I am defenetely want CPM S125V!
 
Sorry, no Vassili, I wasn't suggesting that you do more testing. I know that you work hard on your tests and your tests are very informative. I just wanted to point out how a certain test always test only a certain property, which explains why some people (like me) would rather see a Mili in INFI than a Gamewarden in S125V (not that either is ever going to happen).

No, those numbers are actually CATRA numbers and not number from Phil Wilson. Spyderco owns a CATRA machine, but Sal stated years ago that in order to avoid strive with other companies they don't publish their results, just as they don't publish lock strength test results. Only here and there, Sal or some one working with Spyderco drops a few numbers on the forums. The same numbers Sal has also shown on the forums, including H-1 which was close to VG-10 for the serrated edge and close to 440C for the PE.
 
My issues with super steels come from more of a user's perspective. Although there may be great utility in getting blades that have a higher and higher abrasion resistance, at some point, in my opinion, you have diminishing returns vs. cost. If you could give me a $40 knife in S90V or ZDP-189 well hell I would be all over it if just to say I have it. The fact remains that these steels cost money and they are basically highly specialized in one area. Testing tends to bear that out. I am constantly interjecting into debates about S30V and 154cm, D2 and S30V etc etc ad nauseum. Spyderco makes a $40 S30V balde, a $45 VG-10 blade. This is an absolute bargain as it comes to steels that have good abrasion resistence, good utility, "good steel". Benchmade seems to get it done well with 154cm in an economical package, their griptilian line. Hell Victorinox and Buck get it done with steels that are in a totally different class! If you feel the need to have a steel that is miles above others in terms of one category than someone will always oblige you, but the majority of the market is fixated on providing a high level of utility at reasonable cost. This is why production goes oversees, while some of the higher end stays here. S125V and S90V just doesn't give the best cost to utility ratio to make it worth high level production. I am sort of surprised that D2 and S30V do or even come close.
 
Smash05 said:
My issues with super steels come from more of a user's perspective. Although there may be great utility in getting blades that have a higher and higher abrasion resistance, at some point, in my opinion, you have diminishing returns vs. cost. If you could give me a $40 knife in S90V or ZDP-189 well hell I would be all over it if just to say I have it. The fact remains that these steels cost money and they are basically highly specialized in one area. Testing tends to bear that out. I am constantly interjecting into debates about S30V and 154cm, D2 and S30V etc etc ad nauseum. Spyderco makes a $40 S30V balde, a $45 VG-10 blade. This is an absolute bargain as it comes to steels that have good abrasion resistence, good utility, "good steel". Benchmade seems to get it done well with 154cm in an economical package, their griptilian line. Hell Victorinox and Buck get it done with steels that are in a totally different class! If you feel the need to have a steel that is miles above others in terms of one category than someone will always oblige you, but the majority of the market is fixated on providing a high level of utility at reasonable cost. This is why production goes oversees, while some of the higher end stays here. S125V and S90V just doesn't give the best cost to utility ratio to make it worth high level production. I am sort of surprised that D2 and S30V do or even come close.
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In a free market it should be decided by customers is something needed or not. In USSR it was decided by PolitBuro of Comunist Party Central Committee what need to be produced and what not. Result is obvious - great country collapsed itself afer 75 years of this ruling.

If you check the market you may see supersteel there already - have you problem with it or not - ZDP189 (in regular production actually - all W&H as well as Delicas and Enduras) as well as SGPS and SG2. But those are all Japanese steel. I initially thought that this is because Japanese steels are better and there is no American steel comparable - but this is not true! The truth is Crucible has better steel, but it seems like it needs to send it to Seky City in Japan to make knives out of it.

Thanks, Vassili.
 
HoB said:
No, those numbers are actually CATRA numbers and not number from Phil Wilson. Spyderco owns a CATRA machine, but Sal stated years ago that in order to avoid strive with other companies they don't publish their results, just as they don't publish lock strength test results. Only here and there, Sal or some one working with Spyderco drops a few numbers on the forums. The same numbers Sal has also shown on the forums, including H-1 which was close to VG-10 for the serrated edge and close to 440C for the PE.
Click to expand...

If this is CATRA test then it is much less informative and rather different then what I have, please have another look.

Thanks, Vassili.
 
I am actually talking about the market. No government here is determining anything, costs and utility determine the demand for those steels. Cost of production, cost of marketing, cost of materials. And does all of that cost result in an actual profit for the company willing to produce the knife in super steel. There is a reason the market is saturated with cheaper steels - they meet the immediate demands of the public. One thing I think Sal Glesser has done is provide an entry level for excellent blade steel - Delica in VG-10, Native in S30V. But this also presumes that the end user is intelligent enough and cares enough to know what he or she has in their hands. VG-10, 154cm, S30V - totally lost on my fiancee in terms of what they offer, what they can do. I bought her a Chive in 420HC - why? It has an awful lot of utility for her, it sharpens easy so she doesn't have to learn any extra skills to use it for its intended purpose. It was inexpensive, it was small. She is the end user for the majority of pocket knives out there. I'm not trying to rain on your parade, but trying to shed some light on why super steels are slow to market - they are hard to market! Folks on this forum are an exception, but few will argue against the utility and toughness of tougher, cheaper, but inexpensive steels.
The flip side to the open free marketplace is that it doesn't always give you exactly what you want, it only gives you what the "public" demands.
 
Smash05 said:
I am actually talking about the market. No government here is determining anything, costs and utility determine the demand for those steels. Cost of production, cost of marketing, cost of materials. And does all of that cost result in an actual profit for the company willing to produce the knife in super steel. There is a reason the market is saturated with cheaper steels - they meet the immediate demands of the public. One thing I think Sal Glesser has done is provide an entry level for excellent blade steel - Delica in VG-10, Native in S30V. But this also presumes that the end user is intelligent enough and cares enough to know what he or she has in their hands. VG-10, 154cm, S30V - totally lost on my fiancee in terms of what they offer, what they can do. I bought her a Chive in 420HC - why? It has an awful lot of utility for her, it sharpens easy so she doesn't have to learn any extra skills to use it for its intended purpose. It was inexpensive, it was small. She is the end user for the majority of pocket knives out there. I'm not trying to rain on your parade, but trying to shed some light on why super steels are slow to market - they are hard to market! Folks on this forum are an exception, but few will argue against the utility and toughness of tougher, cheaper, but inexpensive steels.
The flip side to the open free marketplace is that it doesn't always give you exactly what you want, it only gives you what the "public" demands.
Click to expand...

Also there are many out there who pay $400 and more - easy for folder. So you are buying 420HC - I am buying ZDP189 and CPM S90V and not only me. Do not you see my point?

Why my choice is limited?

Why me and other like me told that CPM S125V is not good for me as it was told about CPM S90V before?

Why ZDP189 is on the market and take some place of it while CPM S90V are almost banned?

Why Japanese grinds super steel and American does not?

Thanks, Vassili.
 
nozh2002 said:
Also there are many out there who pay $400 and more - easy for folder. So you are buying 420HC - I am buying ZDP189 and CPM S90V and not only me. Do not you see my point?

Why my choice is limited?

Why me and other like me told that CPM S125V is not good for me as it was told about CPM S90V before?

Why ZDP189 is on the market and take some place of it while CPM S90V are almost banned?

Why Japanese grinds super steel and American does not?

Thanks, Vassili.
Click to expand...

Many to pay $400+ per knife, hmm? Find out how many knives Victorinox (that is just one brand) produce a year and compare the volume...


nozh2002 said:
In a free market it should be decided by customers is something needed or not. In USSR it was decided by PolitBuro of Comunist Party Central Committee what need to be produced and what not. Result is obvious - great country collapsed itself afer 75 years of this ruling.
Click to expand...

Actually, if you haven't noticed, free market dictates the situation you are not happy with.
When there is enough demand to make rich alloyed "supersteels" as profitable as what is being offered now then you will have plenty of these. Until then, you will have to pay more.
But you suddenly feel your choice is "limited"... :confused:



However, if you feel there is really big enough a market for "supersteel knives" made to your liking, establish a company and start making them! After all you may be right :) (and rich potentially:))
 
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